in search of a perfect loop

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by yuhina, Dec 17, 2011.

  1. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    totally agree! Klickrolf,

    skill are just one of the many building blocks in fishing... can you dare say "luck" is not in your building blocks?
    Line control is another good one... I agree, even short cast need control, sinking, intermedia or floating line all require control.

    In single hand casting world, you learn how to cast as straight as possible, then later on you find out the straight line is just make you understand the casting mechanics, the actual fishing cast for dry fly fishing is actually a wiggle cast! then you realized there are more to learn after a perfect straight line! That's the skill will catch you a fish, not the straight line cast ironically...

    Mark
     
  2. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Hey Dan,

    First, I appreciate your explanation! I think we can discuss further if we all agree the circular movement during the pre-forward stroke stage. there is no doubt that the circular movement is in there before the forward stroke. Now... we can just concentrate on the forward stroke.
    I said forward stroke is rotating, and some people say the forward stroke is a straight line path. How could we find it out?

    There is one thing clear stand out if you watch the videos again, and there are some hints in there...

    1) Chris stop the rod tip just as high as his back stroke... but Ed stop the rod tip as much lower than his back stroke position. why those two positions are different?

    2) Chris rock his body back and forth to facilitate the forward stroke. Ed stand like a statue, only use his hands to pivot the rod.

    those are two major difference during the forward strokes. and it is crucial for us to depict the power application.

    Mark
     
  3. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Member

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    Its not the the guys who hit it the hardest who wins the comps it is the guys who have the most control and best casting mechanics in the world.
     
  4. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    Chris is using an underhand SH cast, which used camera angle to create a narrow-looking loop with a floating line. (by no means traditional, have no idea why you called it that.)
    Ed uses a straightforward near-vertical DH stroke, that created a nicely shaped loop with a heavy tip and fly (not new, don't know why you called it that).

    I think this thread is going into the winter OCD zone, strarting from post #1, which compares apples/oranges, starts out with some poorly thought out insights from Mark, and I predict will devolve from there. The only thing being illuminated here is one man's lack of insight; it will be interesting to see what he gets schooled on this time:rofl:

    If I get Mark's statement right, you don't have to be a good caster to be a good caster...
    Were one to demonstrate real perspective and insight and say "you don't have to cast great distances to catch fish" well, I could go along with that for most waters, but still, I disagree with the premise of the thread. Shaping the loop is driven by conditions, there are many variables, and sharp, pointy v-loops are not always the goal.
     
  5. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    First of all, I will like to express my appreciation to some of the people here that are presenting some very good observations to facilitate our discussion. Thank you.

    Second, let me kindly remind you, if you are not interested in this comparison, just one click away. There are so many interesting threads in this forum to explore, No hard feeling.

    Third, I have some fine email exchanges with Bruce this morning, and that is really a wonderful experience to exchange ideas with a true friend... as you guys might see we can get very "excited" at times. but true friends are here for pointing out the real puzzle. So please don't get disturbed by our honesty. As you can see, Adam (Panhandle) is my true brother and I even tease him with Mel Keiger's video. I hope he still see me as his brother : )

    Forth, there is one interesting and fun exchange this morning with Bruce I would love to share with you guys...
    -----------------------------------

    Question for everyone here.... please read it slowly

    The finest distance casters in the world are the finest casters.
    The finest casters in the worlds are the finest distance casters.

    tell me what you agree, both or just one. why?

    Cheers,
    Mark
     
  6. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    :beathead:Let me kindly remind you, it's not your thread, it's OUR thread. You can't stand to have your conclusions challenged, Mark. Problem with that? The answer is one click away, my brother. Try this silliness on Speypages and see if it lasts 13 pages...LOL

    The last thread, which you bailed on, addressed the same point you just brought up. Apparently you didn't like the answer.
    Distance casting is a high expression of proper use of casting physics and form. Distance is only one of the many benefits of good form.
    Excellent form is useful in the pursuit of accuracy, artful presentation, fishing under tough or restricted conditions, and reaching far lies, and is less demanding physically when fishing at normal distances. Every superb caster I've ever met, both SH and DH, had some good competency in achieving distance because it's a natural result of good form.

    Still waiting, by the way, for you to post up a video ...of yourself...that illustrates your knowledge in this area.

    edit: the answer to your question in #32 is, "straight tip path". Comparing power application in a SH underhander with a floater against a DH skagitcaster with heavy tips is apples/oranges. Back to straight tip path>>>straight line path>>>nicely shaped loop.

    In post #3 stated goal of the thread was to compare straight tip path vs curved in the creation of a nice loop. Everybody looked at the videos posted and arived at the conclusion that Ed made nice loops with straight tip path, too, and several knowledgeable anglers have posted that straight tip path is an essential in shaping the loop. To echo the sentiments expressed throughout this thread, what's your point? Straight tip path is not essential to shape the loop? I haven't heard one person agree with that yet.
    Is this going to drag on for 13 pages, or are we done yet?
     
  7. Dan Page

    Dan Page Active Member

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    Mark,
    I want to be sure we answered the first question before we move to the next. Is the straightline rod tip movement on the forward cast essential to creating tight loops?
    Next, what do you defoine as a fine caster?
    Dan
     
  8. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Hey Dan,

    my answer for the first question is : No, straight line rod tip path is not essential to create the tight loop. there are several different ways to do so...

    Mark
     
  9. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    :rofl:hoo hoo. this I think will end badly:rofl:
     
  10. Dan Page

    Dan Page Active Member

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    Mark,
    It seems to me you are trying to rewrite the laws of physics.
    I don't think you'll get much more response on this thread.
    Dan
     
  11. Brady Burmeister

    Brady Burmeister Active Member

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    Could you describe or show the different ways? And yes, I've looked at Ed's video in detail, yes I've the watched his entire video numerous times in years past. If I recall he's very persistent about a straight tip path. Didn't the circular motion he refers to reference his hands within the box?
     
  12. James Waggoner

    James Waggoner Active Member

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    Mark, I'm truely intrigued, please explain the other ways. No deep explanation needed at this time, just the basic priciple of the non linear forward cast.

    As a fellow caster, I fail to see how defending the linear rod path "Law" (Law in quotes because that's how I see it) furthers the discussion, it's proven and stands on it's own, so please allow Mark a little latitude to prove or disprove to himself the validity of another way.

    Mark the stage is your's...don't choke!:thumb:
     
  13. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Brady, (and Dan)

    Good point on recalling "the center box" in Ed's casting.. This is the key. Let's keep in mind we are still talking about Ed Ward's casting style. The following talk might be feel a bit difficult to imagine if people did not watch his DVD throughly... but I will try to explain the mechanics.

    1) center of box. if you can remember what Ed said about the center box as the place he pivot the rod. You can see his two hands are very confined in those small area. The pivot point in the rod actually move very very little. It is almost a "nail drill through it" fix point motion all the way thought. This point is important for the angular momentum to work. "Because as soon as you break out side of the box, you unload the rod." This is very true for the conservative law to angular momentum to work.

    2) if you watch the DVD, he also mention he use continuous move and continuous load method if propel the system (CM/CL). "This is power stroke is fairly long". in the video below (allow me to attached it again) please pay attention to his hand movement, (1) fix point; (2) fairly long stroke all the way though.



    Then I will go on to point out why this is circular motion without straight line rod tip path....
    Mark
     
  14. Brady Burmeister

    Brady Burmeister Active Member

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    As I said, I've seen the video numerous times. No need to repost same clip again. Please, go on.....
     
  15. golfman65

    golfman65 Guest

    You know I used to think that casting was the most important part of fishing...I worked my ass off, got tight loops and decent distance..(never in the bruce or tim range) would sit on the side of the river and judge others by how they cast...

    Then got schooled two years in a row by one of the ugliest casters around..S C H O O L E D!!! Casting doesn't catch fish...casting is like the long drive contest in golf..but if you don't have short game you suck...Casting is a great sport for posers who don't catch fish...Think about that..What do you do if you aren't catching anything? Working on your casting instead of working on your water reading and fishing skills..

    I'm sorry but I don't buy the kool aid anymore...Bruce, Poppy, Pan live and/or fish big water like the T. (clearwater) on that flow it sure helps to have tight loops and distance to fight wind and other anglers pushing out fish...Fishing this year on big water I focused on line control and swing, not distance and got a hog and more action then standing there gunning out 120+ foot casts...

    The more I focused on casting the less I thought about fishing...When you step into a line up and you got a dick between your legs, who doesn't want to be one of the guys bombing out tight loops..funny thing is though...If you ever fished gear and did well with it....where did you toss you float? Yup...ain't cool sometimes to fish with part of your head still in your rod...but IMHO that's the difference between catching and casting...