in search of a perfect loop

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by yuhina, Dec 17, 2011.

  1. attack

    attack Active Member

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    Mark, if you are going to be an expert on this you need to come up with your own stuff not just lean on ed ward. but since you are still trying to argue on the lack of need for a straight rod tip path...how do you explain ed's 45 thrust or whatchamacallit... the sweep in every cast he does ends in a linear rod tip movement opposite the target and a straight tip path to the target on the forward stroke. why is it everytime someone brings this up you go in a different confusing direction? what does stroke length have to do with the straight rod tip path...nothing...regardless of stroke length it must be straight.
     
  2. Greg Holt

    Greg Holt Active Member

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    Dan,
    Wait for me, I'm going too. I read your direct question in #27 post, and the "response" in post #38 that states that a curved action can create a linear reaction. Either your question wasn't clear enough (hardly the case) or the reponse was evasive, mis-understood, or misinformed.

    Multiple posters, self included, have pointed out to the originator of the thread that these two distinct casting "styles" create SERVICEABLE loops, and that "perfect" loops are situation-specific.

    I think I'll go cast over some empty water now--at least I'll come away with my mind intact...
     
  3. speyghillie

    speyghillie speyghillie

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    Hi Guys,
    Not having much time to spend on this debate, i wanted to tell a story about a great fly caster, i still regared him a great flycasting Instructor.
    I was telling him about constant tension casting at a speycasting show i had organized in BC, a casting style invented more than 100 years ago, anway i showed him how the cast was done and the idea behind it and we chatted away for most of the afternoon.
    While he is very well known as a single handed casting Instructor, he had never Speycast.
    A couple of months later i was entering a fly shop in BC and saw his flyer, Constant tension speycasting with """" """"""""".

    The reason i mention this is, while i think of Ed as a great Speycaster and Steelhead fisherman, i cannot agree that his style of casting is anything like "continuous load method"
    If you watch the clip at around 29 sec, and watch the rod tip and line,...... also at a couple points the weight of the line goes off the rod so again it can't be described as continuous load method.
    I do not mean to take anything away from a great Steelhead fisherman and Speycaster.
    Thanks Gordon.
    DTX Pro Staff.
     
  4. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Gentlemen,

    It seems we have a lot of interests regard to "perfect loop" and casting mechanics...that's wonderful... but today I don't have too much time to spent on the internet... so ... bear on me on the delay response. sorry!

    Also, please keep in mind, we are a group of people who interested in discussing casting... I tend to think we are face to face...
    And I am not very comfortable to aggressive attitudes and conversations... so please... keep it gentle and smooth... and we will get there...

    You are not a judge and I am not a criminal ! May we all deserve some politeness??

    I promise I will get back to you, each point!
    Thank you! my friends! Mark
     
  5. golfman65

    golfman65 Guest

    Amen to that Gordon..

    I wrote my piece after sucking down a coffee before going for a run...On the run I kept thinking how I missed pointing out the obvious...We on the PNW can if we choose, to throw big heavy uglies on big heavy tips connected to big heavy heads...WTF do you want a tight loop for? Ed has no use for a tight loop...
    Guys like yourself fishing for atlantic's and guys living on big clear shallow rivers fishing for summer runs can use and appreciate a longer line, mono, poly or light tips and a fly that looks like a fly and not a hunk of iron with animal parts hanging off it...Tight loops cut through wind and reach fish that can be out further on shallower clear rivers..

    I was told that just about everyone can learn to cast to say 120'...getting beyond that to distances in and above 150 requires skill and a real understanding of the cast, it's lines, it's loads, release etc. It can come down to a touch more angle in your elbow...Things we mortal casters have no clue of...

    Pissing in the wind about how Ed is not doing something to huck out a chunk of lead 60' compared to a totally different style of casting is kind of ridiculus....My point being for guys who fish for winter runs on the coast is...Keep doing it...Shit it took me 5 years to realize how messed up that is...and I'm a fast learner..
     
  6. James Waggoner

    James Waggoner Active Member

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    Analysis of Point 1) - After careful study of the short clip it appears they both enter and exit about the same height, relitively speaking. Notice Ed's rod positon at line release, the actual stop occurs prior to this, the rest of his stroke is just follow through.

    Analysis of Point 2) - Ed stands like a statue because with a short head, a slightly longer circular arc then Chris, any extra movement would mean a blown anchor. Given a longer head length I believe Ed would have included the neccesary extra movements to accomondate the extra head length, such as body rock, more lower hand to power the back cast and hire lift.

    As far as power application, though mechanically different, they are principally the same, linear with stops appropriate for the stroke.
     
  7. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    just a quick note here... the mechanics lie in those two videos in sport physics... I will explain it later... how it works.

    if you are interested, you can tell me which one is straight line power application and which one is NOT. but both has the same straight line trajectory.



     
  8. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    Mark, wondering if the javelin v hammer is an apples to oranges comparison (linear vs roatational forces). I think that what Ed and Chris do with the line BEFORE the actual cast is less relavant to the physics of the cast and more to the dynamic variables in which they are standing. I am quite a novice and simpleton in this regard. I believe that once Chris and Ed initiate their cast, their rod tip travels back and forward in a very linear manner. All the motion before that short collection of time that actually is the line departing behind them and heading downrange in front of them is setup for the cast. Setup can be done a myrid of different ways that will allow a good cast to form and happen. Just my thoughts, but I'm getting interested reading all the thoughts of others.
     
  9. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Ed,

    we are not talking about set up, we are focusing on power stroke to stop the rod tip. just concentrate on the final half second right before the power release. They are very different indeed in the Javelin and Hammer throw, It is apple and orange. just like the original post point out, they are two different things regarding to power stroke and energy release. Mark
     
  10. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    James,

    I have two clips to show here...but I really need to go... no time for explaining...briefly, I can tell you the power application and rod tip path are different... Mark



     
  11. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    I'm trying to imagine tying a hammer or javelin to a sinktip.
    maybe there's a special knot?

    The absence of a rod from both sports seems to limit their usefulness in this discussion.
    Mark, please explain the relevance of the hammer throw and javelin to straight rod tip path vs. curved path.

    edit: I am grateful to see video of you standing in water switch casting, Mark.
    those were some pretty straight tip paths in both casts, do you have any that show the results of a curved tip path?

    additional comment: it appears the DC likes you better than the Death Star does, DC is much more forgiving of that top hand.
     
  12. James Waggoner

    James Waggoner Active Member

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    Mark, these are more, excellent, examples of linear motion. Trajectory aside, the load and release occur on the same plane.

    Now you may argue, that the hammer thow is circular, but this circular motion does not translate in spey casting, but the loading and unloading on plane does. So why doesn't this translate? simply because of where the load lies. With the hammer thow it's at the end of the cable in the head of the hammer, with a fly rod the load or energy is in the rod and the line, since the load is not concentrated at one point, at the end of the arch it does't translate. The hammer throw works because the load spins off the arch with a clean release on a tangent.
     
  13. James Waggoner

    James Waggoner Active Member

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    Mark, thanks for the videos. You are correct, the entry and exit do happen on different planes, thus the wide loops. I'd say aim a little higher to start.

    As stated before wide loops do have there place with heavy tips and or large flies, but this thread is about tight loops...or is it about the perfect loop? I guess conditions as well as opinion can determine what's perfect...and that' a moving target.
     
  14. speyghillie

    speyghillie speyghillie

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    Hi all,
    I just wanted to add while i do fish the river Spey(my local river), for Atlantic's, Browns and Sea-Trout, i have been lucky enough to have travelled to fish in Canada 37 times in the last 10 years, FISHING FOR EVERYTHING, and learning from everyone, i only add this incase anyone thought i only fished this side of the pond.

    A tight loop is good for some reasons, but can also be the last thing you want, one example being here i can fish a team of very small flies on a long long leader, the last thing i want is a tight loop.
    Cheers Gordon.
    DTX Pro Staff.
     
  15. golfman65

    golfman65 Guest

    Mark....Please take no offense to this...but cast more and think less...Your loops are pretty standard my friend...your dropping your tip and opening them more then you need...You want tight? Bang that rod butt hard against your stomach and make a high stop...also you can use your top hand, extend it up and then back down and a high stop....i.e. Mortenson..
    .
    You can't take anything from Ed's video...He does a cast where he lifts and brings the line up to his other shoulder, rod out at a 45* angle..turns and casts...works like a hot damn...out to around 80' or so...you don't need to deep load the rod for that kind of distance..or you can overload it with a heavy skagit...rod path isn't critical either..again, I believe Ed fishes with 11 and 12' rods...His Mow tips and doesn't believe in fishing out past 60 or 80' that why he uses shorter rods etc. FYI

    I knew that Gordon have read your posts on the pages and seen your out in b.c. every year if I'm not mistaken...Was only using that as an anology...All things being equal, the only time I worry about my loops is when they are getting to close to my head...Lol...distance can be acheived with many different looking loops..