in search of a perfect loop

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by yuhina, Dec 17, 2011.

  1. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Active Member

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    As I recall as soon as straight line path was mentioned you went elsewhere and the discussion kind of died there if you would have just asked point blank what other ways there were I am sure you would have gotten some more, as there are many more than just the three mentioned, but that is for me to know and for you to figure out on your own:cool:
     
  2. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Active Member

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    Mark I am pretty sure this is where you lost everyone because although it is not the only way to acheive a tight loop it is essential for the other ways to work
     
  3. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    first it was thirteen pages on tip casting,
    now we're on page six and Yuhina has just discovered overhang.
    I'm out, this is worthless.

    Newbies, beware of this guy.
     
  4. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    No, straight line rod tip path is not essential to create the tight loop. there are several different ways to do so...

    Is this clear enough? Bruce, give me some evidence that the videos I provide is NOT a curve path.
    remember in the early post I mention two very important position to make the rotation to work, 1) tight pivot area, 2) long forward stroke.

    Let me ask you a simple question Bruce, does the BC video make sense to you??

    Mark
     
  5. Greg Holt

    Greg Holt Active Member

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    Mark,
    In the video in which you reference the downward rod movement taking place at the 2 minute mark:

    The main upward direction (slope) of the loop and line was already established by the prior direction of the caster's forward stroke, and did not occur primarily as a result any of downward force on the rod after the loop was already traveling upward and outward.

    The slight rise in the rear portion of the loop you are witnessing from the downward pressure on the rod is the inverse of the action/ reaction that occurs during the circle-up at the end of the backstroke (which momentarily drives the lower leg of the D loop down). It isn't (IMO) raising or tightening the loop as you suggest, only opening it up (actually preventing it from collapsing!) and relocating the remaining outgoing line out of the collision path. Why you would spend five pages of suspense to make such a point is a mystery to me, but I'm glad you're enjoying yourself.

    By the way, be careful criticizing my use of the hammer thrower analogy--it was your invention, and possibly a poor choice, given the myriad number of incorrect inferences that could be drawn from it!

    I leave you alone in the spotlight. Good luck.
     
  6. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Active Member

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    :beathead:
     
  7. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    No problem! Greg,

    above statement is what I disagree with and I respect your opinion

    You mentioned this already established forward stroke is already "done deal" even before the downward stroking portion.
    I say the downward stroking is a continuous power pressing, and continuous adding acceleration (force) to the loop (fly in different path) until the rod almost touch the surface, and this is done by through changing the overhang direction. as related to hammer throw rotating motion.



    here is another good example see how long is the stroke and how the continuous stroke accelerate the loop speed even the loop and fly in the upward tangent direction. This is easy to test by yourself... no need to argue here... just go out and micmic the motion.

    In addition, there are also can be test in different direction. try to think what Chris will do, and where he will stop if his pre-forward stroke is like BC video, or Ed's cast. His stop will be way higher and looks very different. again, you can test those idea yourself. and this is the beauty of science, there are repeatable and can be cross examination.

    Mark
     
  8. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Active Member

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    The biggest thing I noticed in the BC video of Todd is the straight line path of the rod, the follow thru happens after the straight rod path movement, if there would have been no straight rod path the cast would not have been tight just because he followed thru or compressed it as you say.
    Now I am done
    :beathead:
     
  9. speyforsteel

    speyforsteel Degenerate Caster

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    You missing an element in you equasion here Yahina.
    rod loading and unloading effecting tip path.
    I did not see a round tip path on the cast in vid.
    There is a corrlation between upper hand path and tip path yet there is no need for them to be on a parallel path.
    In fact they can diverge by quite a bit-with some manipulation of the loading and unloading of the rod in the forward cast you can get the loop to fire almost 90 degrees off from hand path.
     
  10. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Bruce,
    This is NOT followthrough... simply look at where is the rod unbend...

    Mark
     
  11. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Active Member

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    Please learn how to reply with a quote without removing part of my post!

    This is what my quote in post 83 said.......
    The biggest thing I noticed in the BC video of Todd is the straight line path of the rod, the follow thru happens after the straight rod path movement, if there would have been no straight rod path the cast would not have been tight just because he followed thru or compressed it as you say.
     
  12. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    rod loading and unloading effecting tip path.

    Greg, I totally agree! so the deflected rod tip should count into the path.
    But how about look at the start point and the end point? if there are off from the loop flight path, can we assume the stroke/ path is curve? as I show it on my second video (me casting cpx 7 weight)
    I will have to read your hand description more closely, I can't picture it now...
    thanks for the input...

    Mark
     
  13. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    OK Gentlemen...

    I had a long day and having a long day ahead... good discussion! and sorry if I did some mumbling... loooong day!
    I will pay more attention to what has been said tomorrow...

    good night!

    Mark
     
  14. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    Don't you quote me out of context, I was explaining how your hammerthrow theory is crap. You THINK the chain is overhang, but you clearly don't "get" casting in some strange way I have yet to figure out. And you're giving GREG advice on overhang?!!

    I have figured out why this is, however: you said-"In the previous year, when I teach my college students the liner momentum concept, I always lost 30% of them when I mentioned the acceleration, then, if I get further to explain the angular momentum and the angular acceleration, I will expect to loose another 60% from the rest... at the end, about 20-30% got a grip of rotation and how it related to force. That is the reason I try to use more video and more realistic examples to explain. " I can understand how that could be, now.
     
  15. Greg Holt

    Greg Holt Active Member

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    Mark,
    The "continuous power pressing and continuous acceleration" late in the forward stroke you seem to think so important to loop energy in reality serves mostly to keep tension on the rear portion of the outbound line, allowing a shooting head loop to hold the shape that would otherwise rapidly deteriorate without said tension on the portion of the line still connected to the rod. Having that minor amount of force applied at that stage of the cast has the same likelyhood of changing the loop or the overall energy input/output in a major way that a curler's sweeping broom would have in reversing the direction of the stone!

    Post script: Once the rod tip has unloaded (straightened out), all the stored energy in the rod is dissipated back into the line. We all know that. Continuing to drive the rod downward after the cast is well out beyond the rod becomes less an excerciese in adding power to the cast and more one of maintaining tension on the rear portion of the line. If you had a heavy enough line, or a limber enough rod, you could drive it to submersion on the forward stroke and never fully unload it. So What? The total cast energy has not increased beyond what a properly timed cast with a stiffer action or lighter line would accomplish. Ed's style of casting as I observe it employs a very late release of a relatively long stroke with a fairly limber stick and a full load. That's what it takes to move the payload he uses without collapsing the loop from the sheer weight of the sinktip and fly. My first response concluded with the words "Apples and Oranges". That is still a valid statement, IMO.