in search of a perfect loop

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by yuhina, Dec 17, 2011.

  1. speyforsteel

    speyforsteel Degenerate Caster

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    Tip path= the very tip top of the rod and it's path-the actual connection to the line.

    everything in between the tip and the top hand can do all sorts of funky stuff and gyrations but its the tip travel that counts.

    Through the loading of the rod actualy shortening the distance from butt to tip(and the reverse in the unload phase)hand path is but only a medium player in the dication of tip path.
    Three major elements-Rod load/unload,rod arc(rotation) and hand path,ALL workin together in varying degrees to determine tip path.
    You can also include tip rebound and rod arc apex in the equasion.



    All this thinkin HURTS:beathead::beathead:
     
  2. James Waggoner

    James Waggoner Active Member

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    Mark, your clip of Josh Linn is another perfect example of a fine caster working within the confines of some pretty solid casting principles. His low rod delivery is proportionate to his low and powerful V-loop.

    Mark, don't let your pride cloud your judgement. For good and productive interchange to happen we must all be reasonable, that includes you. It's not reasonable to post a video, say there's the answer...the proof and tell us we are missing the point or seeing it wrong when we don't get it. Please humor us and take a stab at drawing us a casting diagram over head and sideways demonstrating the rod's path. Even the simple stick type drawings Rio provides would be helpful.

    You've got our attention but It's truely waning.

    James.
     
  3. Brady Burmeister

    Brady Burmeister Active Member

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    Mark, a great way to end this thread would be "Smile! You're on Candid Camera!".....

    or as the kids say "You just got punked". And then admit you're Peter Funt and this was a hoax. Well played, sir.
     
  4. SPEYBUM

    SPEYBUM Member

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    Nicely Said Grgg
     
  5. Klickrolf

    Klickrolf Active Member

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    This has been an interesting, not to mention confusing thread...but really, it isn't confusing because there are 2 things that occur within the physics of a cast.

    1) the line can only go where the rod tip sends it (assuming no wind).

    2) any deviation from the rod tips path/plane means loss of energy.

    The tightest loop will always concentrate the most energy and therefore be the most efficient and therefore longest...but not necessarily the best route to catching fish.

    This thread came from an earlier thread suggesting lighter lines were equally good or better than a line that would fully load the rod. The javeline and hammer thowers don't have a tool to absorb and release the energy they create, the spey caster has that tool.
     
  6. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Hey James.

    Thanks for pointing out... you are a true friend!
    Sorry for skipping some explanation with the videos... will do my best later.
    and no worries, I have very thick skin, and I DO make mistakes, I will definitely admit it if I make mistakes... but so far I need to finish my explanations.

    here is the drawing, 1) is the Chris, linear. 2) is Ed, rotation. noted the pivot point is different in those two panels.
    The rod tip is the small circle, the thin line is overhang and the thicker line is skagit head.... will give another try later... Mark

    [​IMG]
     
  7. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    First,
    I think Greg did a great job to describe the 1) type of straight path. I agree with Aaron on this one.

    Second,
    I will just concentrate on the 2) top panel to explain what is happening. if you noticed the pivot point is only have one in the top panel. This is because the pivot point is very confined in Ed's casting style. He mentioned this as "center of the box". So unlike the lower one. The lower one is linear (straight path) acceleration which the rod pivot is shifting more, just like people tent to rock their body to get a better linear acceleration.

    In addition, if you look closer to my top illustration 2), the rod tip (small circle) start to get deviate from the straight line very early. This is due to the "center of the box" fixed pivot point. That is the reason Ed cast like a statue. his pivot point is fixed, doesn't move.

    From A - B -C is the path that deviate from the straight rod tip path. and at this stage you still applying acceleration to the rod, force the rod mentain it's bend shape until the overhang reach the C position. which is the overhang almost form a vertical line in the drawing and the skagit head deviate from the straight line path in a angle @. this will force the line to rotate with higher speed. and it DOES will open up the loop a little bit. However, this @ angle is adjustable, if you desire very tight loop, you can have a very small @.

    Finally, I want to point out the opened up loop will form a very desirable "Wedge shape" in the front which is perfect shape to cut though the wind and prevent the big fly to tangle up with sinktip, to me, this is the "perfect loop" for skagit casting.

    Sometime, the wedge loop will close up if you really drive the line speed in a certain range. You probably hard to imagine the loop will "close up" after the energy been release from the rod tip, or say the loop is already on it's flying path.( bear in mind, some flyline has tapered, thus the center of the mass is adjusted to facilitate the wedge loop). But this is speaking from true experience. If you ever cast the CND GPS line with high line speed. You will experience this. the loop actually close up a little bit after it shoot out in the mid- air.

    Why? I am guessing it is due to the line design in the GPS line. Gravity Position S. the weight distribution of the lower lag of the line facilitate the tight loop when it roll out. Same experience I have in the Rio Skagit flight... the center thicker portion will facilitate a tighter loop. When the center mass "roll out" in the air, it will close the loop a little. This is different than the Airflo Compact Skagit which is almost no taper in the middle. (to be continue) Mark
     
  8. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Hey Gentlemen,

    As I can see you guys are really into fly casting mechanic and I truly enjoy discussing this subject. I also want to express my appreciations to most of you that remain calm and focus on the subject and allow me to explain more in detail.

    As a side note, Bruce is my true good friend, even we have some different opinions and heated excitements exchanges time to time. I believe we are still in a great shape. I just want to point out to the public that don't think we hate each other, it is quite opposite than what you think on the surface... actually I just received a PM from him addressed that he is sorry about being too excited about the conversation. I am full heartily appreciate his kind consideration. And of course there is no hard feelings as always....For any normal people who see fly casting as center of his life, This is true understandable!! I just want to address this point here to show how true kind and manly my brother is. Not only have passion about this sport, but also has compassion about his friends!
    Sincerely,
    Mark
     
  9. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Greg,


    Now you mention the final pressing and stroke is minor... and I said it is major. So this is the difference.

    I think it is important and I can tell you and the public here based on my experience it approximately account for 30% of the power. Now you have seen my drawing of power application (panel 2 -). Could you tell me how to calculate those 30% power loss if we do not keep the pressing/stroke?

    This is the core question for everyone also...

    Sincerely,

    Mark
     
  10. Greg Holt

    Greg Holt Active Member

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    Mark,
    Please re-read my edited recent post #90 before initiating a response, as it attempts to clarify my reasoning and interpretation of your argument.

    In your recently posted diagram, you don't label the implied point "d", which is where you previously and repeatedly state a "major" portion of power is being added to the cast due to the "hammer thrower" effect, and now you appear to be shifting that point? The inconvenient truth here is that a fly line and a hammer ball do not have the same cross sectional density or shape, thus applying the radial force at that point (d) cannot affect the entire mass of the fly line in such a way as to add signifcant energy. Even getting much energy input at (c) into a long flexible projectile would be challenging. If you feel I'm wrong about that, provide proof, I'll welcome it.

    You say you achieve the 30% power increase "based on your experience"--30% over what exactly? What if the preceeding movements are sufficiently cumulatively inefficient, that your 30% increase becomes reality by default, as opposed to additional energy input solely at (c) or (d) to an already great cast? That's just one possible explanation for an apparent energy increase of such magnitude, but it is certainly not intended to be a criticism of your casting. (Granted, a very heavy load benefits from a longer moment of energy input).

    Sadly, you're beginning to contradict yourself, saying at one point this late force tightens the loop, now it opens it, changes its direction, creates a wedge, opens then recloses a wedge, etc. etc. Leave that aside. If you're dealing with a shooting head and thin running line, not a mid or long belly with a relatively long back taper and thick running line, your post-launch inputs are limited. Once you launch a shooting head, you have limited control over only the rear portion of it. In fact, I would propose that if you used this "power application" on a long line, you'd be very disappointed in the outcome. You'd have been well served to have started your thread with this diagram, instead of dancing around for six pages with "students" who DON'T pay to be in class, thus have no reason to remain if bored or confused.

    No disrespect, but I'm glad I didn't have to take instuction in your class. Your factual material is great, your conclusions debateable (as you readily and thankfully stipulate), but your style of presentation often leaves me (and apparently others) confused. You suggest I experiment with various lengths of overhang--fine, I have and I will continue to do so.

    DISCLAIMER--Free unsolicited advice to follow:

    Continue to explore and experiment, continue to ask "what if", then read your material through several times before posting it, to see if a 5th grader could "get" it. Spend your verbal currency prudently. Blowback will diminish proportionately. This from a retired plumber with no college level teaching experience, and limited instruction in applied physics. And yes, I will certainly take my own advice...
     
  11. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Greg,

    cool. Sorry I just got back to re-read your post #90 and I agree I forgot some points to get back to you.

    First of all... I apologize for my poor writings...

    Well, my English is still improving, (and sorry for you guys have to read my poor writings… I tried hard to improve it) and make the communication more efficient.
    so please bear on me... will try to double check it before I sent the writings out.
    I will be working on those points and get back to you ASAP. Thanks! Mark
     
  12. Greg Holt

    Greg Holt Active Member

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    Very good, Mark. No criticism of your English intended. I frequently go back and re-read my own posts, cleaning up spelling, syntax, grammer, etc.
     
  13. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Hey Greg,

    First, I just realized It sounded very bad to use the students example 30%-60%-30% after I re-read it. There is absolutely no intention to treat the group of casters here as students!! Or disrespect to the members here in any sort! I found it is terrible after realizing it could translate to bad attitude by reading your response about the class and students. My students example was used to emphasis that the difficulty of the linear momentum and angular momentum in the classroom set up. I apologized for that sincerely! As I said before in this thread, we are all equal here in the spirit of discussing casting mechanics, no lower, no higher. (and I do try very hard to respect everyone's opinion). Hopefully my posting behavior in those two long threads still showed my respects to this community ... My bad!! terrible mistake… will improve next time! Mark
     
  14. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Hey Greg,

    1) I agree, the tension is very important to maintain the loop shape, a minimum tension often require for keep the loop in the right track, as we know, too slippery shooting line will just make the loop land as a pile. I think in most of the cases, as you mentioned, a gentle pull back after the rod being unload will do the trick to prevent the loop deteriorated. This action can be seen in Chris’s video since he frequently pull back the loop when doing the side arm cast. See video one.

    2) However, what I am suggesting here is a stronger downward force that adding to the still bend rod. This action is part of the forward stoke (pass the point A in Panel 2) continue adding force till the end of the power stop (I will explain why I use point A. it seems we have some misunderstanding here, will explain in the following response). You can see this motion in Ed’s video (0:16 - almost) and Josh’s video (0:36 sec). The rod was dipped into the surface, then unload after that. The caster try also to pull the rod tip back to the air. I explain this “backward follow through” as an act to remain tension. See video (below) (0:53 sec) (tellis) . At (1:03) see also how the loop close up to a tighter loop form after flight in the mid-air.



    I am not very sure about your illustration here, but I agree if using heavy sinktip and heavy fly, the motion will be pulling down more to prevent collapsing. Is this also a sign of adding more force /energy to the downward pressing?

    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    At the first part we have understand some disagreement points (hopefully) which is the motion of continuously driving the rod downward after the A point. If this is following through? Or this is adding force to the fly line.

    Point A in the panel 2 diagram:
    First, I use point A as a reference point is because this is the point that rod tip start to deviate from the straight path. In my view, the whole discussion is the rod tip path during forward stroke (load-unload) has to be remain a straight path. See the #1 (correct me if there are something misunderstood here)


    ---------------------------------------------------
    My statement and explanation about this motion is adding force to the flyline, below is my explanation.

    After the A point, the rod tip continue to drive downward with fast acceleration. The rod is putting tension on the overhang that cuased the overhang to rotate and pulling the Skagit head to the downward motion. This force can be calculated as the centrifugal force centered on the pivot point located at the front portion of the rod (depends on the rod action, on soft rod, the pivot would be located on the lower part of the rod, on the fast rod, the pivot point would be located more close to the rod tip ), this rotation force caused the rolling motion of the Skagit head .

    ----------------------------------------------------
    Ed’s casting forward stroke:
    I totally agree, Ed’s casting stroke is very long and the pivot point (between both hands) is very confined in a limited area (center of the box). If we watch the video close enough, the forward stroke can be defined from the far end (starting 45 degree thrust) vertical rotation up and forward the rod tip down to near the surface. All those long movement motion was centered on the single pivot point. (releasing the casting energy very late). If we can picture the motion here, then I will like to point out the above described motion is the definition of rotation. (1)long movement and (2) centered on one pivot point. please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotation Under the definition of rotation there is no liner path on any point of the rod. Particularly the long movement will eliminate the possibility of the deflected rod tip path in making the possible tip straight path. I know this is strange, but we have to pay more attention to the caster’s hand and see if the pivot point move/shift or not.

    The only video I can think of at this moment that use fix pivot point, and short stroke to achieve the straight rod tip path (because to the deflected rod tip in making a short straight line). is the Goran’s style (see video below). Noted how short his stroke is. This is the only way to achieve straight line path on a fix pivot point. Other than this, if a caster want to extend the stroke (and also maintain the straight rod tip path), the pivot point has to be moved / shifted, and it is called translation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Translation_(geometry)



    Hope this description doesn't sound too jargon. (to be continued) Mark
     
  15. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Hey Greg,

    Tangent forces come from the angle @
    There is a bit miscommunication here. I think the discussion is focused on the straight rod tip path. So I use the A point as my breaking point which is deviate from the straight line after the A position toward B position. In D position the rod tip actually is already starting to pull the Skagit head off the straight line path.
    For fast action rod, after A –C the rod tip is curving. For softer action rod, it would be A –E (did not illustrate in the panels) all the way down.

    Inefficient is possible, I agree, here we can see the forward stroke actually is different from Ed to Josh. You can see Josh has more force added to the final downward stroke from A-D, and the rod tip was dipped into the water surface. and Ed is more continuously even powered through to the D position (close to the water surface).

    [​IMG]

    30% is calculated from the angle change, roughly. If we agree the Ed’s style is center on a fixed pivot point. Then we can dissect the angle changes in different portions. Regular angle change for the rod tip from the starting point of forward stroke, then stop right at the edge A (straight rod path method). The angle change is about 45+45 = 90 degree see panel 1). If you continue to curve the rod tip down to the C position or D. that would be adding another 30-40 degree more angle change, this is the additional 30% power of the long stoke. (of course this is based on the assumption that curving rod tip is still adding power, but not following through) (the point we disagree with at this moment)
    -------------------------------------

    I admit this part is messy. Sorry, I will refine it in more detail later. The new concept I just brought up is about the loop unroll dynamic after it flight in the mid-air . It DOES open up a bit in the initial downward stroke. But sooner when the loop flight out from the rod tip the loop detach from the stroke tension (point C). the loop unroll motion start to work with line weight distribution. And it shape the loop to a tighter loop see Tellis video at ( 0:53 sec, below). Again, I admit this areal dynamic after the point C is what I did not mention in the earlier post. (to be continued) Mark
    (Tellis video at ( 0:53 sec))


    Thanks!Greg, I will make a better presentation for sure!