in search of a perfect loop

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by yuhina, Dec 17, 2011.

  1. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    Thanks for your contribution to the discussion. Yuhina's explored his thoughts for 8 pages in this thread, thirteeen pages in the last one, and hasn't delivered yet. Your comments might be seen as inflammatory, hmmm. But I've deserved the ball busting, no hard feelings there.
    I appreciate your very witty comments about Meiser, wine, and tampons, but you dropped a stitch somewhere. Props for creativity. I guess.
    This is very focused critique on some really dumb concepts that might influence new guys. The fact that I recognize casters who are way beyond me is not a nose/ass scenario, I just give credit where it's due.
    Ed has disclaimed this crap, even while Yuhina is trying to gain credibility by posting vids of him. I have no hard feelings, don't necessarily feel angry as such, but this my sport and my passion being screwed with here. So the normally placid and funny Spaz gets a head of steam up. I give credit to all pioneers, innovators and awesome fishermen/casters, including senor Ward, not that my applause means a thing. But I shout crap when I see it.

    C'mon. Yuhina. give it up.
    I've been spanked, everybody's been spanked at times. just drop this. Go back, rethink again, and definitely spend some time casting for fish, ass against the trees, wind against your loop, in horizontal sleet. School up man. I respect your balls for bringing forward and will respect your balls for letting it go.

    And please, Mark, don't go into a diatribe about how you can't stand "aggression". Yawn. be a big boy. Like Sean says, it's the internet.
     
  2. T Dave

    T Dave Member

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    X2.
     
  3. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    I remember you, Mr T!
    welcome, and what are your thoughts on angular momentum as it pertains to rod deflection in the unloading phase of the forward cast?
    Does the rod tip need to move in a straight line to produce a good casting loop?
    regards,
    Spaz

    Man, I am so glad I bowed back in. It's old home week.
     
  4. TrevorH

    TrevorH Active Member

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    I skimmed this thread. Is this beef all over whether or not the rod tip needs to travel in a straight line path on the forward stroke?

    When I'm swinging a simple claw hammer, I lead with the butt of the hammer, and pivot or turn the hammer over at the last moment, so that the face strikes flat to the object. Anything else results in a glancing blow. What I do to get the hammer moving prior to the moment of turning it over doesn't make or break the blow. It can be curved or straight. I sense a similar point in the forward stroke of a cast where the rod tip needs to resolve into a straight outbound line, but it seems that it can take a variety of paths to that point.
     
  5. speyghillie

    speyghillie speyghillie

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    Hi Guys,
    Early morning coffee and a look out the window tells me everything is frozen this side of the pond.... so no fishing for a wee while,.......... got to say this has been another thread i have enjoyed, i see little else being debated on the sites i have a look at, so its all good fun.
    1872 was the date Underhand was first written about, and a huge debate was had about the style on the river Ness at a demo in 1893
    Take it easy.
    and have a great Xmas.
    ........... now where the hell is that javelin. :D
    Cheers Gordon
    DTX Pro Staff.
     
  6. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Hey Greg,

    Thanks! The same effort as you put in! I am really appreciate you point out some great points/ directions to me. As you can tell, sometimes I just can't stay focus! And be honest with you, you are a waaaay much better writer and thinker than I . There are something I already learn from this thread and still learning it. Thank you!

    To all, I appreciate there are still much interests in this thread and the casting mechanics. Despite we have spent quite a lot of pages ... I personal think we have finally reach the common ground. I am really really excited to see those posts that leading us to a good discussion in mechanics. Thank you! There are several really good questions as Greg, James and other have pointed out. Some I have idea how it could happen, some I am still search for the right principle to explain... but this unknown area is really the questions that get me thrilled. I sincerely invite you to join this group discussion. I think WE can figure something out here... Mark
     
  7. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Thanks Gordon,
    I am glad to read this! appreciated!
    Happy Holiday! Mark
     
  8. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Trevor,

    Great points! Thanks for bring up the original question for us and thanks for the great example of swing a hammer. The pivot point is the key factor for many sports and machineries. great example!

    Now I just draw another diagrams to help us discuss those different power applications.
    The first diagram is the power application between A) Chris (parallel to the surface), and B) Ed (an angled rotation with a single pivot)
    [​IMG]

    The second diagram is the power application between C) Javelin (parallel to the flight trajectory 45 degree) and D) Hammer throw (an rotation with chain, releasing at the angle to aim the 45 degree trajectory)
    [​IMG]

    James and Ed's idea of pumpkin chuckin Trebuchet is a great example as well... see mechanics below... I will add explanations as soon as I reach the office... Mark
     
  9. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    Mark, Mark.
    I've been hard and mean... trying to pound a point in.
    Build inertia into the line, loosely like a javelin, by the combined use of linear and rotational force (distantly telated to the throwing hammer) variably applied against a linearly moving fulcrum in the form of an energy storing and releasing spring lever (rod).
    Without all the components we end up with a crappy cast with misdirected energy. The line goes where the tip tells it to.
    This is the physics experiment we all pursue every weekend. SHers create a curve cast by curving the tip path on the horizontal plane. Come on man.
     
  10. Brady Burmeister

    Brady Burmeister Active Member

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    Yep. And it happens to doublehanders too when for some reason your muscle memory didn't come with you to the river. Then you get pissed because you came there to fish, not to practice casting mechanics. So you stop, take a breath, focus on what needs to change. Fix it, and get back to fishing.
     
  11. speyforsteel

    speyforsteel Degenerate Caster

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    [​IMG]
     
  12. speyforsteel

    speyforsteel Degenerate Caster

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    The hammer analogy works if you remember one thing.
    Go out in the yard and shake a hammer and then a fly rod-what's the difference ?

    I'm going to run with this a bit more after work if I get home early enough.
     
  13. Brady Burmeister

    Brady Burmeister Active Member

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    My stiff mid section hammer or my deep load hammer?
     
  14. Greg Holt

    Greg Holt Active Member

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    Mark,I think I might be able to offer something here that could constitute an "aha" moment for you. Not pre-scripted, not polished, but here goes:

    Yesterday, during a casting excercise dealing with a different issue, I anchored the leader into the surface of the lawn. Next, I placed a weight at the junction between the sinktip and the front of the head. The weight is specifically placed here to allow the entire head to participate, but not the sinktip, since it is generally water-anchored. Then, I drew back, formed a D loop, and made a LEVEL forward stroke--no fancy stuff.
    This is a basic roll cast, but because it's done on grass it is very much like a switch cast, yes?

    The forward driving loop picked up the weight and propelled it up and over and beyond the anchor, all without any tortured maneuvers of trying to drive the rod down at the end of the stroke. In fact, for me, those types of movements detracted from the effect when added to the experiment.

    So here's a thought: since most of the mass of the shooting head style D loop originates BELOW the intended flight line (and rod tip), moving it forward rapidly causes it to lift the belly, and throw it OUTWARD as it is being propelled forward without ever involving the series of events you seem intent on introducing. (Hint: think of the line as a single object, like a tennis ball.. Gravity attempts to restrain it, until forward motion overcomes it and flings it up and over with the aid of hangdown). As a mental excercise, invert everything but the landscape, including the rod, line, & caster and re-run the scenario, noting that the weight would then fly downward relative to the rod tip! Gravity seems to be a major player here...

    Remembering that virtually all spey casts are modified ROLL casts, consider the possibility that the effects you are witnessing are largely the result of horizontal velocity acting on mass (initially positioned below the rod tip).

    If you went to the casting platform, formed a backcast that stayed ABOVE the rod tip, not even letting the tail drop, then made your downsweeping forward finish, would you be in for a disappointment? I don't know. Try it. Then try that again with a standard level finish, and report back in.

    Another worthwhile experiment would involve coiling the head into a small package, and attaching it to a dental floss running line with several feet of overhang, observing the effects of various release points along the flight path, including the effects of forcing the rod down at the end of the stroke. Just don't ask to use my rod for this.

    Cheers,
    Greg

    PS: I and another member have been discussing a mechanism that would secure the rod vertically, but allow it to move in a horizontal rectilinear, reciprocating fashion, simulating the (modern ordinary) casting stoke, while removing the caster from the equation. I visualize it doing to a fly line exactly what I have described above.
     
  15. TrevorH

    TrevorH Active Member

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    ...needless to say, I don't expect the hammer analogy to illustrate much about casting, but it reflects some aspects and is easy to relate to.


    Mark,

    Regarding your new diagram, I think I see what you are getting at. Ed is just following through on his forward stroke to keep tension in the d-loop until the fly actually pulls free from the water's surface. If the fly was REALLY stuck he could follow through then immediately lift to put additional pull to the fly. Neither of these efforts, though, are loop shaping efforts in my mind. The follow through allows him to fish giant flies on light rods and lines. Going back to the initial video of Ed casting, I doubt Ed would call that a tight loop. That is a fishing cast. In the other video, the guy makes his forward stroke to a high stop, and while continuing to hold his running line, he lets the loop roll down the line. Those are obvious loop shaping efforts. I make some distinction between lines being cast (first video) and lines being slung (Ed's), but Ed's is an unusual example to illustrate the loop shape and speed potential of a slung line, because of the follow through. The timing of the running line release seems to be an indicator of where a cast falls on the cast v. slung continuum.

    Of course, the follow through can be considered a loop shaping effort in so far as it is intended to open the loop.