Indicator or Not?????

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by fsbii, May 29, 2002.

  1. chironocast

    chironocast New Member

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    Heres the deal: Regarding the relative use of an indiator for chironomid fishing vs. aquiring the skill for detecting subtle strikes without the indicator. POPPYCOCK!!! The absolute only reason I use an indicator with chironomid is to keep it off the bottom and to buy lots of time with a correct presentation. It is sooo easy to detect the subtle takes without an indicator. All you have to do id keep your eyes glued to either your floating line (the way I always fish chironos) or your leader. If you can see (and pay attention) you can see the subtle or not so subtle hits. Clearly, (at least for me) the indicator is misnamed as strike indicator. Rather, it should be called depth indicator. This really is funny to me that anyone thinks its a great mystery or skill to be able to detect hitd without an indicator as long as you stay focused on your line. Heres my great secret...I always keep a slightly fluffed line That is to say a little slack in both the fly-line and the leader. That makes it much easier to detect the hits (as the line unfurls or shimmies when bumped) and gives the fish enough slack as to not detect the pull of the line (and you) until its too late.
     
  2. fishnfella

    fishnfella New Member

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    Fish till ya drop.
    Then suck it up
    and fish the evening hatch.

    Success is a relative term as you know. It is possible to Chironomid without the indicator and in fact in Canada it is the commonest way. This is no doubt a hangover from their archaic regulations which prohibit use of indicators on fly only waters.

    Stuffy purists NEED a reason to assume their skills are superior and should be the correct and only method of "Flyfishing". Flyfishing my friends is quite simply angling with the artificial fly as a lure and by definition excludes scents on the fly, but not the use of indicators. For years prior to common useage of cork or yarn indicators flyfishermen were using a small section of flourescent paint on the end of their dry line as an indicator.Prior to that in jolly ole England (the home of flyfishing) the anglers were using a team of flys,the top bushy dry fly acting primairily as an indicator.
    I hope you are not suggesting that these guys are not TRUE flyfishermen?

    Back to my use of the term "Proper" I am referring to the method most
    similar to the real emergence of the insect pupa and thus the most successful.I have caught many fish using damsel nymphs drug in every direction in various depths,but the "proper" and most effective method is shallow and toward the shore. For those of you that choose to catch less fish, in order that they can practice an inferior method and feel superior in some way to other flyfishermen, let them count down and strip back their pupa and use their "extrasensitive" powers of perception to "detect" the few strikes they will get while I'm having fun C&Ring a dozen or so fish.
     
  3. nicoldrysdale

    nicoldrysdale New Member

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    hey Fishnfella,

    I'm afraid your use of the word 'proper' is not proper.
    And your insistence that your chironomid technique is superior to other methods of fishing the chironomid smacks of 'stuffy purist' superiority and entomological elitism! :WINK
     
  4. fishnfella

    fishnfella New Member

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    Fish till ya drop.
    Then suck it up
    and fish the evening hatch.

    OOOOOOOh, looks like I ruffled some Nic0l feathers. Maybe I shouldn't have used the term stuffy?? Or was it elitism that rankled feathers??

    Funny though, in a previous post you admit that using an indicator with chironomid pupa will catch more fish, then in this post you
    claim I'm the eliteist for restating the same observation, (which only a fool or the uninitiated would dispute.)

    I'm taking this all as a personal affront akin to a slap in the face with a wet sun glove.
    I hereby challange you to a fishoff next fall at Nunnally Lake or any other good chironomid lake of your choice, when the second generation hatches start. You using your extrasensitive and finely honed, elitist powers of perception to detect,hook,and land those subtile takes on the stripped pupa while I indicator fish.
    We'll see once in for all whose method is stuffy elitism and whose method works best. KAYYYYYY? Har,har,har this is gonna be soooo easy!
     
  5. nicoldrysdale

    nicoldrysdale New Member

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    hey Fishnfella,

    Sorry for not responding to you earlier but I've just returned from fly fishing sockeye in Stamp rapids....

    We both agree that an indicator will catch more fish.
    However, you believe that it's a better way of fishing because it's the 'proper' way to fish and, as such, it catches more fish. And because of the belief that it's categorically a 'better' way to fish you're asserting that it's more superior to other methods and this is, I'm afraid, elitist.

    I believe that catching a fish without an indicator is simply a more difficult technique than catching a fish with one. And since 'difficulty' is not synonymous with 'better' it should not be considered and is not elitist.
    My view on fishing with or without an indicator is, as with all forms of fishing - to each his own. I've enough trouble rationalizing my own decisions on anything without presuming it for others.
    By the way, nymph fishing in a Halfordian world was considered equivalent to using dynamite so it's a bit humourous that you consider any kind of nymph fishing as elitist.

    The challenge:
    ......hmmm...
    Because I don't dispute that using an indicator catches more fish (although this may not be true of catching huge browns in fast water), it would be less than prudent of me to take you on with chironomids on Nunnally Lake; my Scottish temperament is very eager to do so but, Fishnfella, it would contradict my primary reason for fishing. You see, I fish to get away from the competitiveness I have with others.
    I discovered a while ago that, for me, there really wasn't that much true satisfaction for me in beating the other guy at anything let alone fishing. And it was through fishing I realized this. So, I must decline the challenge but I do however look forward to fishing 'with' you sometime rather than 'against' you.

    Now. Fishnfella, I hope you don't think my reason for avoiding this challenge is a euphamism for not wanting to waste my time in a philosophical stuper half asleep on a tube while waiting for a take when I could be nymph fishing on the edge with a #4 stonefly for 16lb. steelhead in wild west coast rapids where one wrong wading step means being swept into oblivion ...... naw... Fishnfella.....that would be elitist wouldn't it.... and you know me better than that.:WINK

    cheers

    nic
     
  6. ray helaers

    ray helaers Active Member

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    I am often amused by folks (except when they start to get cranky) who like to use their fly outfits to fish in a way that is not strictly flyfishing (a perfectly acceptable practice, at least to yours truly, who indulges in this type of behaviour often), such as trolling a fly (behind motorised boat or floattube), adding some kind of implement to their fly like a small spinner, or scent (or a beadhead), OR fishing with a bobber, then getting all defensive and hurling accusations of snobbery (or stuffy purism) when someone points out that what they're doing isn't exactly flyfishing.

    Whew, that was a long sentence, but here's my point. Calling something flyfishing or not isn't a value judgement, but it apparently means more to the chap who's about to accuse me of snobbery than it does to me. I all the time use beadheads, occasionaly troll from my float tube, and have from time to time hung a wet fly under a bobber, sometimes on still water. I'm perfectly at peace with myself over it, but I'M not the one who feels a need to call it flyfishing. Who's the snob? What after all is wrong with bobber fishing, especially in the hands of a master making the rest of us look like tyros?

    I'll admit that I prefer to catch fish by actually flyfishing (using a fly rod, reel, line and fly that more often than not imitates the appearance and behaviour of a natural food organism, but more importantly is either riding the forces of whatever current is available - including none, or is manipulated entirely by my own hand, without the aid of any "device" like a spinner or undue weight - including clouser eyes, which I use all the time, OR a bobber as an aid to hanging a chironomid at a precise depth). But as just mentioned, and as above, I'm all the time doing something else. I've no trouble with any of it; call me what you will. However, since I understand that words have meaning quite independent of what I wish them to mean, I understand that what I am doing is not strictly flyfishing.

    And since I am not the snob (except perhaps when it comes to language), I have no reason to call it flyfishing.
     
  7. mtp1032

    mtp1032 New Member

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    Indicators have their place. I'll sometimes use an indicator (usually a 12/14 emerger to which a bead-head nymph of some kind is attached) when casting across the current to a deep, long run. I seem to have trouble casting yarn and/or styrofoam corks.

    In my experience, fish seldom seem to be attracted to the indicator fly. But I believe using an indicator fly is more successful than yarn/corkie/etc. Probably because the latter is unnatural.

    However, when fishing pocket water I *never* use indicators. I just drop a weighted nymph at the head of the pool, keep the rod tip high and move it with the drift.

    Cheers,

    Michael
     
  8. fishnfella

    fishnfella New Member

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    Please check your email fishnfella. Chris
     
  9. ray helaers

    ray helaers Active Member

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    Wow.

    That kind of BS is absolutely uncalled for. I imagine Chris will be in here soon, but I couldn't help butting in to call WEAK on that.

    Now I'll tell you what doesn't ammuse me. People who subject others to their own low self-image by boasting, issuing challenges, and calling names from the safe anonymity of an otherwise great bulletin board.

    I don't know, maybe you guys are actually best friends and this is some kind of joke I don't get. Otherwise fishnfella: go off and become the greatest flyfisher in history; just leave the rest of us out of it.