Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Mark Walker, Feb 21, 2014.
Canadian Wolves, nuf said
Balance of nature my ass... let's say I plant northern pike or sharks in your trout/salmon waters. How would that make you feel? It's interesting that people call me an idiot. The ones that have never lived in my shoes as an elk hunter and believe a foreign video that doesn't know a deer from an elk. Keep on sipping the lemonade cause your world is perfect.
BTW my handle name is sarcasm over the clueless pricks I encounter out of WA on a daily basis, you guys might know a few.
I don't hate wolves. What I object to is the anthropomorphism of wolves. The video implies the wolves alone improved the entire ecosystem of YNP all by themselves. It sounds like a rewrite of the book of Genesis. The science is ignored. The facts are ignored.
One fact that tends to get ignored is the wolves are not endangered. They have reproduced beyond most biologists forecasts and many moved out of the Park to happier hunting grounds. Those who advocate that State wildlife folks take a "hands off" approach to the wolves are basing their demands on something other than science.
Again, I don't hate wolves. What I object to is those folks who see the wolf, not as a wild animal, but as some sort of emissary sent from God.
I've lived in wolf country in both Alaska and now Montana. They don't bother me and I don't bother them. Like so many things these days, in my humble opinion, it's the extremist on both ends that cloud or distort the facts and make it an issue.
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I saw this video via another link, wherein it was pointed out that this was produced by British outlet for the British market and they use the term "deer" to refer to their native Irish Elk (now extinct in the British Isles). In northern Europe, the term "elk" is used for what we call a moose. The roots of those terms are apparently in Europe and were misapplied in North America by early settlers. Perhaps it is we who can't tell a deer from an elk .
I would add that it is a little silly to criticize this video for not detailing all of the evidence for the conclusions that are asserted to be the result of restoration of wolves in the Yellowstone ecosystem. It is a 4 minute video, fer cryin' outloud!
That said, anyone who has been following the science on ecosystem changes since the reintroduction of wolves in Yellowstone should recognize that virtually all of the assertions in the video are backed up by solid scientific studies. Among the first were the ones detailing the wolf predation on coyotes and the subsequent increase, first, in rodents, and subsequently in hawks and eagles. This was shown 10 years ago or more. I remember seeing a seminar at the UW over 5 years ago on elk in the Yellowstone that detailed the changes in behavior from spending more of their time in open habitats, often meadows near streams, to spending them in cover (the same study also showed changes in elk female hormone levels that, if I recall correctly, resulted in lowered fertility, thus contributing to population decline). About the same time studies showed the dramatic increase in woody plant growth along streams, which was associated with lower peak water temperatures in summer and increased fish size and numbers. Good for fish and for fishermen. I have not seen the studies of stream entrainment, but that seems like an expected outcome of increased streambank stability from more woody vegetation and less trampling by hoofed animals.
Whether one approves or disapproves of the restoration of wolves in the greater Yellowstone ecosystem, their role as a keystone species, and the effects of their restoration, has been well documented.
I'll be damned. This thread is taking the same route as did all the others
I'm liking the wolf re-introduction. It's revealed much about human nature that would have otherwise remained hidden. It's expanded the pool narrow-minded extremists I'd rather not associate with.
Oh, and it's a great ecosystem experiment as well. And should it eventually prove to be a mistake, it's not like it's irreversible. We proved our ability to eradicate wolves nearly a century ago, lacking today's technology.
Damn, Mark, you nailed it.
When it happens in your backyard as an elk hunter who's invested into it for many years, this wolf crap is spoon feeding you guys, just like this video for those who don't walk on dirt is the exact same responses. My wish is plant wolves and let's see if that improves the fishing in your area. If it comes out of a university study, it must be true... well I got news on that, there changing minds by developing bias bullshit to feed you. Case in point the largest migrating herd in N. America has been reduced from a high of 22K elk to less than 3K today.... why because we need more song birds, eagles and beavers. What a farse. My hope to all of you that like wolves, may they come to your area and feel the impact.
Lastly, if anyone here has ever fished buffalo ford in YNP and have seen the tourist out wading trying to catch stupid Yellow cuts those fish wait for people to stir up nymphs in the river, cast towards the knee of a tourist and bang, easy as it gets... well what do you think a herd of elk or buffalo do that crosses the river? They call that erosion I call it feeding time.
Well Gene, at least we got some fishing advice on Trustfunder's last post. That's got to be a first...
"Plant wolves and see if it improves the fishing in our area." What?? Wolves have been part of the landscape in my area for longer than man has been here. The fishing in my backyard speaks for itself.
Who's spoon feeding who?
You believe that the elk belong solely to you because you have "invested" in hunting elk.
You've done nothing more in your rant than prove my point about extremist on both ends.
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To base the success of the Wolf recovery solely on the success to easily harvest elk is certainly shortsighted. I remember a story about a woman in Avery Idaho, on the St Joe river as she railed at a news reporter about the Canadian Grey Wolves ruining hunting. She stated that she has been able kill her Elk every year without even leaving the road. Now they don't even see Elk in town any more.
When I left Eastern Wa for Arizona I thought maybe I would leave the Wolf hysteria behind but alas, here it is the same thing with the re-introduction of the Mexican Grey Wolf.
The heck with it I am going fishing.
PS I just broke a promise to myself about never posting on a wolf thread.
It seems to me that when it comes to these threads, emotions and opinions float and facts sink. So what we see floating by is....
There were a lot less people when wolves roamed the upper west. There were a lot more wagons when you could find a blacksmith in every town with more than a few hundred people.
Anyone tried popcorn with yeast on it?
pretty tasty, but hard to find at the movies.
I think that wolves should be introduced downtown Seattle, Bellevue, and at the epicenters of most of the PNW cities.. Make sure they are unfed for a couple days too..
Society seems need an enema from the responses of these wolf threads..