Thanks David. I've "sort of" done that, but do it separately (herl then wire wrap) - which I guess is different altogether. As I read your instructions, I realized that I had missed the "obvious", when it came to why my herl is getting chewed up so easy. The other "obvious" thing I noticed...my herl is about 25 yrs old!!! It's kind of hard to get a good wrap, when your material is crap! (insert icon that beats head against wall) It does okay for bigger flys, but tends to fall apart on those small ones. Thanks again for the tips David! Hey Eunan, all of my flies turn out as good as your avatar.... not really I've tried that stuff for big flies, but the real small ones...well, I suck at dubbing.