kinky question

Discussion in 'Saltwater' started by Tricky, Mar 16, 2008.

  1. dryflylarry

    dryflylarry "Chasing Riseforms"

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    I agree with Les. I am an old fan of Scientific Anglers and haven't had much trouble with usually one good stretching before the day begins with minor followups. I still get "ants in my pants" when I hit the water and guess I don't have some of the patience of you younger guys for stretching and doing aerobics before fishing!
     
  2. Tricky

    Tricky Member

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    Some really good advice- much appreciated. I've seen the baskets w/ the cones inside, and the idea makes a lot of sense, I'll try one. I rarely have more line in the basket than I can cast; in fact, it's usually the opposite- I strip off a lot less line than I can comfortably cast because of the impending tangle. Thanks especially for the tip about the first few strips staying out of the basket- as a rockclimber, who's used to stacking rope before every pitch, the idea should have occurred to me before now.(there's that doofus factor). Thanks again for the tips, keep 'em coming.
     
  3. Stonefish

    Stonefish Triploid, Humpy & Seaplane Hater

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    Tricky,
    You asked in your original post if anyone used the Rio Versa Tip Line. I don't use the Rio, but I do use the Airflo multi-tip line for all my local salt fishing. I just have caught the Outbound or 40+ bug yet. The reason I like this line is because of the running line. It is much thicker then what you'll find on the Rio Outbound lines. I haven't compared it to the 40+ running line, but imagine it is thicker then that as well. I have very few tangles with this line. A slight stretch at the start of the day and I'm good to go.

    I likely sacrifice some distance using this line. Since most beach fish are hooked 80 feet or less from shore, it isn't a huge deal to me personally. I rather give up some distance then deal with tangles or line stretching all day.

    As other mention, a stripping basket is a must.
     
  4. snbrundage

    snbrundage Member

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    Tricky,

    Why, oh why, do I do this?

    I have a Rio Versi Tip, and I do not have kinky problems with it. I mostly use a floating shooting head in the salt and I don't have kinky problems with that either. I think I would catch more fish with an intermediate sink tip, but the ease of handling the floater wins the day for me.

    OK. just one time try to drop the basket. Make long coils in your stripping hand, three to four coils will hold about thirty to forty feet of running line, giving you, for instance, twenty feet of of rod and leader, thirty plus feet of casting head (more with the Rio) adding up to about eighty feet of cast. You can experiment with four or five or even six shorter coils if you are wading deep. Release the coils in sucession when you cast.

    Learning to coil the line is tricky, along the lines of Salt Dog's disposition on the vicissitudes of using the basket, but it is very easy to learn. The coils will keep the line out of all but the heaviest salad, and they will keep the line essentially out of the water, ending that resistance. One trick is to make the first coil a little longer, and subsequant coils a little shorter. When I use the shooting system it is easy to cast eighty feet and more without any false casting. When the current is strong and demands a large redirection of line one false cast is necessary, and the extra length of the head on the Rio will compound that problem.

    I believe that a basket would cost me distance, and trouble, like Salt Dog explains. There are so many really good fishermen (better than I am) who recommend the basket. I just don't see it. I mean, even for relatively inexperienced casters, learning to coil could not be harder than learning to use the basket. Well, some of you know Bob Aide. I told him about my difficulty with basket recommendations. He looked at me incredulously and said, "What? I always use a basket in the salt"! Sometimes allies are harder to find than an extra ten feet. Seriously gentlemen, many of you cast long distances on big rivers without a basket, but still use the basket in the salt. Why? And doesn't the basket ultimately impede your distance? My greatest fear is that I will die with this in my craw, so Jim, Les, all you great sportsmen, HELP!

    Steve
     
  5. salt dog

    salt dog card shark

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    Hehe...you crack me up Steve.

    I've seen you casting at the beach, and weren't you holding coils of line by your lips? :rofl:

    For me it's simple, I use a two handed strip; since my remaining unused appendage is buried in my waders, I have no choice but to use a basket to hold coils of line. :clown:

    I can find lots of reasons, but if it works for you without a basket, I'm the last one to criticize anything that simplifies the sport. As Anil pointed out, it’s all about efficient line management. For me, I get significant extra distance using a basket, not less. I think I added 10 ft to my cast first time I used a basket, since I can not “efficiently” hold very much line coiled in my stripping hand without mischief of one kind or another catching up to me.

    These are the things that got me to start using a basket: Coiling enough line to make 65+ ft casts require that the loops of line in your stripping hand be so long that the bottom ends will be in the salad and current if you are wading over your shins, or have waves pushing it around. Shortening up your coiled loops gives your more loops in the hand to deal with and greatly compounds tangling. In salt water you are not stopping the strip with 37.5’ of head out and 5-10 feet of leader, as fish following almost to the rod tip are pretty common. Not so for steelhead. So I end up with many more coils of line in hand than I can effectively manage.

    Casting in a river, once you’re done with the swing or drift, typically your fly is out of the target water straight below you, you strip just enough line in to comfortably make your back cast, and use the water friction to load up your rod. Not as much line is being stripped in and coiled in your hand; you are starting your cast with 40+ ft of line out of the tip plus your leader.

    Also, each time I strip, or double haul, with coils in my stripping hand, the coils are being jostled to over lap and set up the dreaded tangle, and that's still assuming I am able to effectively release each coil individually, as desired, one or two at a time, even if my fingers aren't frozen. Also, rivers don't have rollers coming in. Shooting line from a basket just gets around all those issues once I went up the learning curve of using the basket.
     
  6. Stonefish

    Stonefish Triploid, Humpy & Seaplane Hater

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    SNB,
    When I'm stripping llike crazy, the last thing I want to think about is creating coils so my line is ready for my next cast. The basket takes care of that. It does a good job of keeping seaweed off your line and your line off barnacles, two thing of course you don't have to deal with on rivers.
    That being said, stripping baskets certainly aren't for everyone.
     
  7. Milt Roe

    Milt Roe Active Member

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    I've always gone with coils between my lips. Sounds like this is considered poor style by some - Whatever. This system has always worked fine for me, fresh, salt, backyard cat fishing, whatever. I can cast as far as the next guy with a crisp double haul. To me, a basket is like using a bridge in a game of pool. Not something I need, so why bring it along?
     
  8. Jim Wallace

    Jim Wallace Smells like low tide.

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    Milt, that'll help ensure you "hold your mouth right," which my late uncle always said was mandatory for good catchin'!:hmmm:

    I, too, hate the gnarly Rio Outbound coils. Don't much care for the running line on it. Same goes for the thin running line on my 8 wt Rio Versa-tip. Same stuff. gotta stretch it, and when it gets twisted, take off the fly and let it hang in the current or drag behind the boat to untwist.
    I am learning how to better cast this line, though. Stretch it out, double haul it, shoot it high and let it fly. Works, sort of. What the hell do I know:confused: Practice makes better...need more!

    Like Stonefish, i like my Airflow multi-tip better...got it 5 years ago and the coating is holding up better than that on the Rios.
     
  9. Don Freeman

    Don Freeman Free Man

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    kinky question, only deeper

    I have al the same frustrations withe the Outbound running lines in the intermediate head models. It gets a little better in the heavier versions. I have a 6,8 and 10 weights, and the running line gets a little easier to live with as you go up in size, unfortunately, I use the !*#@ 6 wt the most.

    I also have a 6wt in the type 8 sinking with an intermediate running line, and that's a different animal entirely. The stiffer backing shoots very well, and the sinking tip drops like a toilet seat.

    Best fished from the boat of course, the type 8 sinking line has been a passport into the abyss, and has hooked me into much bigger fish, including blackmouth and coho.

    So, if you're looking for a dredging line and have gone sour on Outbound from using the clear/yellow models, don't let that keep you from considering the Rio. I get much less pissy using their sinking line, and find I get significantly more distance than using the Deep 7, or other full sink tapers, with good presentation in fast currents.
     
  10. marcopolo

    marcopolo Member

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    I now use the SA Streamer Express following Les' advice from a similar post a year ago.
    My old Rio Outbound is not going to get wet anytime soon.
     
  11. Steven Green

    Steven Green Hood Canal Pirate

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    I also have the SA streamer express. It has only tangled once by operator error and I never even stretch it :confused:
     
  12. wolverine

    wolverine Member

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    I've had the same issues with the Outbound lines. I've got them in both intermediate and sinking in 7/8/9 wts. I really dislike the running lines but love the distance. I guess I'll start hacking them up into heads with a different brand of running line. Since I'm migrating to switch rods I'd like to get to the point where its a roll cast, 1 back cast, aim it high and lett'r fly.
     
  13. DimeBrite

    DimeBrite MA-9 Beach Stalker

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    I use a SA StreamerExpress on my 6wt and 8wt reels for the salt. Definitely less line tangle issues and a terrific line to cast, even in breezy conditions. I like to arrive just before first light and give it a good stretch into my basket. Rarely need to repeat. Ideally, within the first couple of casts you'll get a solid hook-up and have a nice salmon to finish the job of stretching the line (the best way). The Orvis plastic stripping basket is very helpful and worth the cost.

    I ended up buying the StreamerExpress after hearing the cursing of another experienced saltwater angler as he was repeatedly untangling his Outbound during an evening of good fishing. I'd been there many times myself with my old intermediate line. He had a StreamerExpress the next time I saw him. When fishing the beach time and the timing of your cast is everything. Less tangles = more fish hooked
     
  14. Tricky

    Tricky Member

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    Lots of good info and suggestions, much appreciated. I think I'll look into the SA streamer express. So.....anybody wanna buy a lightly used Outbound? Hardly cast and only thrown a few times...
     
  15. herl

    herl Member

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    I'm not familiar with the streamer express; sounds like a good choice though..
    Don't overlook Airflo's 40+ line (freshwater version), it is basically the same as the Rio Outbound, but with better running line and more of a front taper on the head.

    Cast 'em both if you can, I'd love to hear a comparison..