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Looks like one retailer's finally had enough of being undercut by Costco...

15K views 130 replies 58 participants last post by  jessejames 
#1 ·
Got an email from Leland Fly Fishing Outfitters in San Francisco that they are liquidating all their Sage rods and will no longer do business with the company b/c they can't compete with Costco. I'm not trying to open up a debate here (it's already been discussed at length several times over), but if want 30% off a new Sage ONE I suggest you get on it:

www.lelandfly.com/On-Sale/
 
#56 ·
If someone has the means to purchase a $1,325.00 fly rod, then so be it. Some folks also like to drive 100K Mercedes as well.
Does a $2,700-$3,000 Winston bamboo fly rod get a pass just because it is bamboo?
I'm sure they've done their research and there is a market for rods of that value.
It is easy to focus on the highest end model, but I believe Sage has done a good job over the years of offering a wide variety of rod models. They've offered most anglers the ability to own a Sage should they choose to.
Combine that with Far Bank's Redington brand and brands such as TFO and Echo, I don't think we've ever had it so good as far as gear choices.
Nearly every angler can now acquire a very functional outfit to fit their budget.
SF
 
#61 ·
Leland is a scab on the ass of every good, high quality fly shop and this is exactly why. Now, in Oregon, I'm getting calls to price match Lelands price on Sage rods that they were going to buy from me at some point. These are people I have spent some serious time with on helping them narrow down the rod choice that best suits their needs. All that time and service that my boss pays me for out of his pocket, out the window.... Just to be under-cutted by a mass e-mail blast from a sniveling San Fran fly shop that has the same marketing skills as a middle school pre-teen who just got their ball taken away by a 7th grader.

Way to go champs, your not hurting Sage. You are hurting every good Sage dealer in the nation with your little temper tantrum.

Yes..Sage in Costco is an issue, but every Sage dealer has had to deal with it.

I would tell anyone who is/was in the market for a new sage...buy it, but buy it from the people who have taken the time with you, and buy it for retail. Labor, lights, rent, and product all cost money for fly shops and selling rods at discount and price matching don't keep fly shops open. If we all support the discounting crap, next time you need true expert advise on casting, tying, knots, lining your rod, fly selection, directions, quality materials, fitting waders right, fitting boots right, etc...etc...etc...list goes on and on... hopefully you can find it online, because that's the only place you'll find it.

.....rant over...thank you
 
#62 ·
Wow, what an interesting thread! It makes me reflect on what a very happy man I am because Anil and his awesome team at Puget Sound Fly Co. consistently exceed my expectations regarding fly fishing products (quality, variety, prices, etc.), and good old fashioned customer service! I'll echo the savvy fly flingers who already said it: find yourself a local shop (who prove to you that they know their stuff, willingly share their wisdom, want and value your business, and personally care about your success on the water or on the vise) and support them. It's like spoiling yourself . . . my fly shop is much better than yours. Absolutely no disrespect to our brother who shared a sale tip, but Leland has not earned any loyalty from me and can stuff their 30% discount!
 
#63 ·
. Absolutely no disrespect to our brother who shared a sale tip, but Leland has not earned any loyalty from me and can stuff their 30% discount!
Just to clarify: I've made the mistake of buying from a big box store before, and learned the value of purchasing from small/local fly shops. I provided this link b/c 1) Leland is not a big box store, and 2) Leland is local (for me anyways). I wasn't aware of all the politics surrounding the dispute between Sage and Leland. If I had been aware, I probably never would have posted this thread. If nothing else this thread has exposed some interesting politics between companies and their retailers. Good on Sage for dropping Leland.
 
#65 ·
It would only stop a serious buyer if the price wasn't a "discount" at Costco. The difference in the price is the cost of the warranty. That difference in price plus the probability of using the warranty + replacement cost is what a serious buyer should be considering when buying "grey market" from Costco(if only considering the economics).
 
#67 ·
Sage needs to protect their MAP dealers. When those rods hit Costco shelves, Sage should have bought them all up before dark...or...authorized their dealers to make the same deals, on the same rods.

After doing one or the other, then you can slap around your misbehaving dealers as you see fit - with a clear conscience...that is...if a clear conscience is even important to them. :)
 
#68 ·
Sage needs to protect their MAP dealers. When those rods hit Costco shelves, Sage should have bought them all up before dark...or...authorized their dealers to make the same deals, on the same rods.

After doing one or the other, then you can slap around your misbehaving dealers as you see fit - with a clear conscience...that is...if a clear conscience is even important to them. :)
Slap that bitch....
 
#69 ·
So I'm trying to follow,
Sage occasionally accidentally lets costco get their hands on high end fly rods and sell them at an outrageous discount.
Instead of buying them out it's more of a not our fault, not our problem sort of deal,
Leland's gets their dealership revoked by Sage for saying screw it, if Costco can sell discounted sage rods then we can too.
Sour grapes all around and dirty laundry gets aired out in the open, and here we are now?
 
#71 ·
One of us mentioned getting a Burkheimer or some other custom rod for about the same as (what I consider) an outrageous price for a piece of graphite, as being a "deal". I can't fathom that! The most expensive rod I own is a Headwaters bamboo for about $250 when I bought it. $800 for a Sage?? I'll spend that for a custom longbow, but not for a Sage when my little Echo Solo coupled with an Orvis Hydros 3D casts every bit as well. Then, if I want, with the money I saved, I could rent a guide's expertise (or put it toward the next Montana elk hunt!!),
 
#75 ·
If I owned a fly shop, I wouldn't go wacko as has Leland and drop my Sage rods. I'd still offer them but I'd probably push Winstons and other high end rods instead.

It's up to Sage to protect its dealers from this sort of thing. Sage sold the rods to someone shady and that is on their head, not Costco.

However, if someone feels they will die without a Sage rod, as a fly shop owner, I'd still offer them.

What Leland is doing is not good business. One shop is not going to bring down Sage no matter how mad he is at the company so he's just shooting himself in the foot.
 
#78 ·
Just to keep this thread going, and not to disparage Sage too much since I own a few of their rods and reels, I'm curious how Sage's business model is legal. I mean, how is it different from price fixing? Sage sets the retail price, and no dealer may sell for any different price.

I thought all good American businessmen are capitalists. And one of the leading attributes of capitalism is competition, and may the better man, or company, win. Price fixing is anti-capitalist, or at least it seems that way to me.

And, not saying that they do, but if Sage, Loomis, Winston, T & T conspired to fix prices on high end rods, that sort of price fixing would violate the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. Not that it matters since the government appears to allow that all the time any more.

And to Kent's earlier point about a $1,300 Sage rod, really, that's gotta' be all about product placement, image, or whatever, with next to nothing to do with the costs of manufacture, distribution, and sales. I recall what one industry insider told me when I bought my first Sage rod at a healthy discount that was legitimate at the time. The rod retailed for $315. I paid a total of $129 for the rod, sales tax, and shipping to my door, . . . and was told that both Sage and the shop made money on the transaction. If true, and I have no reason to think it isn't, then I'm left to believe that the value of a fly rod, plastic ones at least, is in perception, the eye of the beholder.

So if anyone wants to complain about something, maybe the appropriate target is price fixing by Sage?

Sg
 
#80 ·
Just to keep this thread going, and not to disparage Sage too much since I own a few of their rods and reels, I'm curious how Sage's business model is legal. I mean, how is it different from price fixing? Sage sets the retail price, and no dealer may sell for any different price.

I thought all good American businessmen are capitalists. And one of the leading attributes of capitalism is competition, and may the better man, or company, win. Price fixing is anti-capitalist, or at least it seems that way to me.

And, not saying that they do, but if Sage, Loomis, Winston, T & T conspired to fix prices on high end rods, that sort of price fixing would violate the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. Not that it matters since the government appears to allow that all the time any more.

And to Kent's earlier point about a $1,300 Sage rod, really, that's gotta' be all about product placement, image, or whatever, with next to nothing to do with the costs of manufacture, distribution, and sales. I recall what one industry insider told me when I bought my first Sage rod at a healthy discount that was legitimate at the time. The rod retailed for $315. I paid a total of $129 for the rod, sales tax, and shipping to my door, . . . and was told that both Sage and the shop made money on the transaction. If true, and I have no reason to think it isn't, then I'm left to believe that the value of a fly rod, plastic ones at least, is in perception, the eye of the beholder.

So if anyone wants to complain about something, maybe the appropriate target is price fixing by Sage?

Sg
MAP pricing isn't fixing. Logical on some levels to see it that way, but in my view it's more about leveling the competitive landscape amongst the dealers than protecting margin for Sage. It isn't sage and another manufacturer colluding to make sure that no consumer can get any premium rod for less than what they want. It's Sage making sure that a big-box like Cabela's can't destroy a boutique shop via the advantage of low-margin/high volume, and undercut the price to the point that other dealers can't compete. Thus the fuss with Costco, which does just that.
 
#79 ·
They cant legally tell them what to sell the rod for, but they can tell them what the MSRP is and that is the only price they can Advertise. Otherwise I believe it is just saying if you sell at below my MSRP then we will drop you, you still have a choice.
 
#81 ·
In my opinion and my opinion only. I feel that fly shops in general would do much better if they geared a lot more of there rod, and reel inventory to novice anglers. Shops like Cabelas, Basspro, and other big name stores will always hurt small fly shops because they offer more options for novice anglers. Even a 300 hundred dollar outfit scares the shit out of a new guy, and especially his wife. If I ever owned my own fly shop I would stock much more affordable gear, that appeals to a much wider customer base.
 
G
#82 ·
IMO That won't keep you in business. And I say that because a majority of novice anglers don't understand the difference between a BPS and a local fly shop.

I work in a shop in Arizona and I will tell you that your statement was my belief when I started and as I have gained experience in the industry I no longer feel that way. Now maybe that is just the Arizona market, but I can't get novice anglers in my shop to buy the inexpensive, made over seas, Redington outfits. Even those cant compete with Bass Pros white river series or Cabelas prestige series. So my shop thrives selling high end gear, because that is what has kept us open for the past 10 years in a Desert!
 
#102 ·
You always have to realize that a lot of these rods are designed and built by professionals correct ? Well to have the best in the industry, which some say Sage does costs more than say the engineer at another brand. Yes all companies have the same types of costs associated with bringing a product to market, however they don't necessarily have the same amount of costs. Sage might pay there employees more, rent might be more, the products they use my cost more, it might be relative in terms of type but not necessarily the same in terms of Scope. The old owner of Winston sales rods out of his house for 4 grand, bc that's the amount of time effort expertise, testing and materials goes into making one rod while still making a profit to pay the bills. I just don't see why people blast Sage bc they charge high end prices for there high end rods. People make it sound like there just greedy and throwing out an average product but charging steep bc there name is on it.
 
#110 ·
the biggest problem with this thread is people taking the few "elite" models sage sells with an extra tip and extra fancy finishes and make it seem like that sage is more expensive than their competitors. if you look at winston and loomis, the price points on the standard top of the line rods is almost identical.

sage's prices are comparable with the other US manufacturers. yes, they sell some dressed-up methods and one's for more money... but you can still get a one or method for roughly the same price as a loomis nrx or winston's top of the line boron.

it is too bad this thread has turned away from leland's blatantly dishonest advertisement into bashing a single rod company.
 
#114 ·
I haven't read much, if any, bashing of Sage. Just explanations for why the price point is where it is, when those who know about manufacturing know how little that costs relative to the mandatory retail price.

I still think that free market capitalism should apply, and Sage, distributors, and retailers should sell at whatever price they see fit, and that Sage should not fix the retail price. Call it what you want, but that is what they are doing. Apparently there aren't many laissez-faire free market capitalists in the fly fishing biz, based on this thread.
 
#116 ·
I haven't read much, if any, bashing of Sage. Just explanations for why the price point is where it is, when those who know about manufacturing know how little that costs relative to the mandatory retail price.

I still think that free market capitalism should apply, and Sage, distributors, and retailers should sell at whatever price they see fit, and that Sage should not fix the retail price. Call it what you want, but that is what they are doing. Apparently there aren't many laissez-faire free market capitalists in the fly fishing biz, based on this thread.
Fly fishing is still a free market. Sage isn't forcing anyone to sell their products. If the policy of enforcing MAP pricing caused a loss of revenue, they would change it. Again, this policy really does protect independent fly shops from being squashed by big box.

Any shop can sell a variety of rod brands that don't require MAP pricing. Those brands will not keep the doors open or the lights on. A very well run fly shop will make 10% profit after it pays it's bills. If customers come in and expect to get any more than 10% off, bye-bye local shops.
 
#118 ·
I'm new to fly fishing and I'm sure that I suck at casting when compared to those of you who have been fishing your whole lives...but still. That doesn't change the fact that better technology will produce better rods. As a scratch golfer who knows the value of good equipment I find it amusing when people try to downplay the amount of technology advancements in graphite over the years. Sage has been at the forefront of this for quite some time in the FF industry. The R&D in graphite/resin is incredible. Even the smallest tweaks can make a worlds worth of difference.

Yes the TXL's, Circa's, Methods, Ones, etc are expensive and you can get by just fine with a cheaper rod. If you personally don't see the quality boost enough to justify the higher price, that is perfectly fine and nobody will fault you for that. However that doesn't give you the right to then turn around and bash Sage for offering higher quality stuff at a higher price.

I would never bash someone for playing off the shelf stock shafts in their driver even when I know they are missing out on an absurd amount of advantages for ponying up the $$ for a new shaft. Does that make them wrong? Nope. Does that make me wrong for paying $300+ more for a piece of graphite that I see value in? Nope. Does that mean Aldila/Mitsubishi are wrong for producing them? Nope.

As a final note, it is also very possible that for a specific individual, the cheaper model is actually better to them. That still doesn't give them the right to rip into a company for pumping more tech into products that results in a higher price tag. Lots of the high end golf equiment will actually be a worse fit for an average player. Granted fly fishing is different than golf, but the materials and technology going into shafts/rods are remarkably similar
 
#119 ·
Matt P,

That's true. Sage offers business according to their model on a take it or leave it basis. So OK, it's legal. However, Sage doesn't protect small shops from big shops or big stores. Larger stores that buy more rods, i.e., quantity or bulk purchase, get wholesale price breaks that are not available to small shops that place "onesie, twosie" orders. Consequently the larger stores, and chains like Cabela's, enjoy a much wider margin between their wholesale purchase price and the mandatory retail selling price. So I see Sage's policy as being more beneficial to Sage and large stores than as a policy intended to protect the small shops that generally deliver the best customer service.

Golfman44,

The increases in rod making technology have made an impressive difference in distance casting, but not accuracy. I think good bamboo rods made nearly a century ago by Leonard, Payne, F.E. Thomas, and other makers placed dry flies just as accurately in the ring as a Sage ONE. Of course, a cane rod by one of the old masters costs a tad more than a Sage ONE. However, my point is that rod technology hasn't changed as much as manufacturers would have you think. But there is no doubt that modern rod makers offer products that are far lighter for the power available, and allow a decent caster to fish from sun up to sun down with less work. That is what rod technology has mostly delivered.

In case I've been misunderstood, I'm not bashing Sage, or anyone. I'm happy to learn more about fly fishing topics any time. I'm grateful to Sage and the other leading fly rod companies. Their advances in rod technology have trickled down such that today's inexpensive import rods are better fly rods than the very best rods offered by the very best American and European companies 35 or 40 years ago. Fly fishermen have never had so many excellent products to choose from at price points from very affordable to those designed to appeal to those who have to have what they perceive to be the best or for whom money truly is no object.

However, it's unlikely that I'll every spend $1,000 on a plastic fly rod, especially when that price point can buy the basic model bamboo fly rod from Sweetgrass (the former Winston 'boo boys) in Twin Bridges, Montana. In this world, there is value, and then there is value that is also art.

Sg
 
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