NFR Matt Lauer firing and My feelings on the MeToo campaign

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Jojo, Nov 29, 2017.

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  1. The T.O. Show

    The T.O. Show Buenos Hatches Ese

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    I hear ya, but I'm giving Alabama the benefit of the doubt until we find out what happens. I think when people actually vote it will be harder to dismiss what he did, but we'll see.

    As for Franken, yeah what he did doesn't seem nearly as bad as some of these other guys, and most cases were probably just jokes in poor taste. But like I've said before, I think there needs to be zero tolerance in elected positions for this, and if he knew he was ever going to run for office he should have had the common sense not to do any of that. If he has to be the sacrificial lamb for Democrats to prove that they won't support or tolerate that shit then so be it.
     
  2. napawino

    napawino Banned or Parked

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    Its different cultures where certain types of touching is not necessarily sexual. Here, any touching at all can be construed as sexual. I think many American men lack respect for women. To many, they might as well be a blow up doll.
     
  3. napawino

    napawino Banned or Parked

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    Spend time in Alabama. You won't give them any benefit of the doubt. It's not only the poor treatment of women they are guilty of. Black people in many areas are still thought of as "the help". Old ways die hard in the south.
     
  4. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

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    Hmm. That must be why the women I traveled with to Saudi Arabia had to attend a special travel to Saudi Arabia class.
     
  5. napawino

    napawino Banned or Parked

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    Oh yes. I am sure that is why. They are told to act stupid, never question a man, and always walk 3 steps behind him.
     
  6. Freestone

    Freestone Not to be confused with freestoneangler

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    No. I have traveled in 27 countries, mainly countries in Europe and Asia/SE Asia, along with Australia and NZ. Some trips/countries were work but most were vacation. I can guarantee you that this is not a uniquely American problem!

    Here is but one story, however, I have lots:

    For me, Italy was the absolute worse. I think I have been there 3 or 4 times. It got to the point on my last trip that I swore if one more guy laid his hands on me, I was going to deck him even if I went to jail. And no, I don't mean friendly touching. Try being on a passenger ferry in Vencice that is as crowded as a Japanese subway, so crowded that you can barely breathe much less move, pressed like a sardine against the railing while the guy behind you dry humps you and won't stop. If I been physically stronger, I would have thrown him over my shoulder into the water or ripped his ballls off. As soon as some passengers got off, I ran and found a seat; he followed me and sat nearby, watching my every move. At that time, I'd been traveling for 14 months and was pretty road-hardened, and not a push-over but I was scared shitless. It was 10:30 pm and this was the last ferry of the evening. To make matters worse, I wasn't staying in a tourist area and getting back to where I was staying involved going down a rabbit warren of narrow dark streets/passages. Plus, I knew that I may be the only one getting off at that stop. So when we arrived at my stop, I waited in my seat until just before they closed the gate and ran for it; he followed. Luckily, 2 strapping blonde guys got off before me and although the creep disembarked, he stopped short when he saw the guys. I immediately asked "Can you help me?" The two guys took one look at the situation and my face and put me in between them. The creep headed in the other direction. The two blonde guys turned out to be college boys from California and were horrified when I told them what happened. I was an "old lady" of 40 and they assumed the white knight role. With me in the middle, they protectively escorted me to my room, keeping an eye out for the creep. Yes, I realize I could have been at risk with the college boys but I was willing to take my chances as I knew the intentions of the creep. Plus, my intuition was fairly well-honed and the boys seemed like the safer bet.

    Anyway, add in flashers, masturbators, guys who follow you, touch you, etc. and I can testify that this behavior is a problem everywhere and for many, many women. Whether in Italy or Australia and Ireland, women travelers (un)favorite past time in the evening is comparing scorecards of how many times that day you got flashed, groped, etc. and warning each other of places to avoid. ie. The woman who was part of a small group I was traveling with went into a wine shop in a small tourist town in Australia. The shop was empty. When she brought her wine to the register, the owner offered to give it to her free if she ___ him and when she told him no, and tried to leave, he blocked her way and tried to molest her. These stories were a dime a dozen. And it's not just solo travelers or young, pretty women (although it is often worse for them); I am not a beauty but a tomboy who dresses conservatively, always have (my former secretary used to accuse me of dressing like an old Russian lady). But as I said before, this shit generally starts around puberty and follows us into colllege then the workplace. It sucks. Mostly I just don't think about the past and am now happy to be of an age where this is way less likely to happen.

    And luckily, nothing really really bad has ever happened to me as I mostly try not to put myself in potentially unsafe situations and as @Ed Call will tell you, I tend to be hyper-vigilant. But I have still had dozens of bad experiences and would have to think long and hard to remember them all. And like trying to remember every single fish I've caught in the last 50 years, I would be hard pressed to remember all the incidents. But I have also had the good fortune of good guys sometimes observing the behavior of a creepy guy and coming to my aid. For that, I am grateful and always will be.

    However, shit can happen very fast and although I am very strong for a woman (to quote several PT's), I am no match for a guy. This is one of the main reasons women tend to try to disfuse situations, even with laughter, as a pisssed off guy can easily do us serious harm. And trust me, lots of creeps get scary angry when you reject them or tell them to stop. Sure, I have told guys off and even had to use my knee more than once. But sometimes, I am struck mute and as much as I may have wanted to smack an offender or yell at them, I couldn't. Other women have told me the same thing. I once asked a woman who was a therapist why many of us women do this, why do our mouths freeze, why can't we do or say anything in the moment. Her response was because our brains are smart enough to recognize when we are in danger and self-preservation won't let us do/say anything stupid.

    Anyway, to all you good men out there, I can understand how unbelievable all the stuff in the news sounds. Unfortunately, most people would never believe how pervasive it is, in and out of work, in and out of the country.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
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  7. Jojo

    Jojo Active Member

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    @Freestone . Wow! You have traveled a lot! I don't travel out of the country much, but i had incidences in Japan while in high school and a couple of years ago in Italy, but nothing dangerous like what happened to you. That is truly frightening. Thank goodness for the two guys who helped you.

    You know I just now thought of this! I've been to Mexico three times with my husband but i have never run into a problem ever in Mexico even when there were quite a few times where i ventured out on my own.

    Also WTF....that story of the woman in the wine store ? And just how expensive was that bottle of wine she was buying anyway that he would think she is getting a deal? I wonder how many women he did that to?

    Ha! Would love to hear the story of you kneeing a couple of guys!
     
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  8. Jojo

    Jojo Active Member

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    Oops i forgot. I had a guy in San Jose Del Cabo stop his car and got out of it and exposed himself to me as i was walking back alone from a restaurant. when i saw it I laughed because i thought it was a fake dick because it was incredibly oversized. I'm still not sure it wasn't. He put it back in and drove off. I didn't realize until later how badly that could have gone since it was not a busy area.
     
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  9. Gyrfalcon2015

    Gyrfalcon2015 Wild Trout forever

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    Again, am so glad that Freestone and Jojo share their stories. Important to hear those !

    As someone who has traveled quite abit myself, along the lines of Freestone, let me say there are some serious pervs outside of the US as well, no doubt.

    Will also put out there this..let's say it is not just men on women assaults..men who fancy men, can also do bad things, obviously. I had a horrible experience as a 12 year old kid in Hawaii with a perv at a mall who followed me around and flashed money etc.. I found my family shortly and never forgot that frightening experience.

    Europe..Venice-especially in the dark, is NOT a place to be under assault. It is a very difficult place to maneuver and a lot of alleys and cubbyholes, and poor lights even when there are lights. With water ferries and confusing twists and turns, it can be brutal.

    I will say Italy, in general, is a place to watch out for lots of bad things. Great place to see, a place to be ready for the worst. ..France, too, where they think sneaking a pinch in is, somehow, ok?
    I have been with a girlfriend who had this happen far too often in any crowded situation. Sometimes they are not discreet and almost beg for your response where-not being a local, you take your chances on getting out of an escalated situation if you act strongly.

    De-escalate and leave is the best, if you can.

    The sad downside of travel, mixed with the good.

    Jerks and jackasses abound around the world!

    I will say this, the poorest country I have been, Nepal, was by far the most gentle and friendly!
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
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  10. Rob Allen

    Rob Allen Active Member

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    According to the old movies a slap accross the face would stop most sexual harassment i think women should try that first. If that doesn't work a knee to the groin.
     
  11. Jojo

    Jojo Active Member

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    I keep thinking of new inappropriate shit that men have done in past years that mostly involved a violating touch or grope of my body that i haven't thought about in years....mostly by complete strangers and sometimes by men i actually knew. But i've never felt i was in danger, most of it happened so fast i had no response and felt it better to leave it alone and move on. Only occasionally did i react strongly. As @Gyrfalcon2015 says, de-escalation.....

    But i do fear where this campaign is going because of the Al Franken situation. I am still reeling over the news of his resignation. I still do not believe Franken's punishment fits the crime. He should not be lumped in with all the rest of them. And i am so pissed at the Democrats who called for his resignation that i am going to send them a letter.

    Given Steve Bannon's character and the character of those in the Oval Office and the fact that there was a sting on the Washington Post which would have discredited Roy Moore's accusers, had it been successful, I do believe something sinister may be at play because of Roy Moore. I do not believe the story from Franken's latest accuser who said Franken told her "It's my right as an entertainer".

    Mika said it on Morning Joe today too. I am afraid of where this is all going and how it will undermine women who have been in fearful situations, where they have been intimidated, sexually harassed and assaulated. We have made some very good strides with the MeToo campaign but having it go into overdrive will take it right off the cliff if it continues this way. I believe in due process and wish the Ethics Committee which Franken requested would have continued to do its job and then see what happened instead of having his own f*&ing party do him in. I am sick of their holier than though, trying to always be the perfect, when they go low, we go high, and always trying to be smartest person in the room attitude that got us the very president we have in the first place.

    Apologies to the member who posted an earlier thread about more fishing and less politics. I hope you aren't reading and getting irritated that this is more on an NFR.
     
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  12. Jojo

    Jojo Active Member

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    Joe Scarborough also made the point that the Democrats asking for Franken's resignation probably would not have asked for it if Minnesota's governor was a Republican. So there's that too. That part is going in my letter!
     
  13. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

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    Well, that certainly answered that question. Sorry you and others have had to experience situations such as that described. Part of my reason for asking the rhetorical question was to show that we here in America have made considerable progress in correcting such behavior - as compared to a handful of countries who still see it as no big deal.
     
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  14. Jojo

    Jojo Active Member

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    Well sheesh....i didn't realize it was THIRTY-NINE Democrats who called for his resignation. That will take a LONG time to contact them all. I wrote my letter and already sent it to Kirsten Gillibrand but i think i may just send to the women Senators including Cantrell and Murray, and maybe Schumer.
     
  15. Skip Enge

    Skip Enge Active Member

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    LeeAnn Tweeden known liar...mission accomplished removing a thorny problem for this administration.
     
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