mike kinney and bob meiser join tfo

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by shawn k, Feb 8, 2007.

  1. Porter

    Porter Active Member

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    Flyshopkristan posted this yesterday :confused: it's old news :beer1: look below:D

    never mind...me bad :beathead: :beathead:
     
  2. FlyShopKristin

    FlyShopKristin Going Online

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    Nah - that was my dumb-ass move. I posted without looking to see this string had already started.

    Congrats to Mike, Bob and TFO - this is great! Bert said is best - "we will all benefit from the new association". These are great rods, and I am so glad to see the incredible talents of Bob and Mike in a new line of rods.
     
  3. FT

    FT Active Member

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    Keep in mind that these new rods are going to be built out of IM6 graphite and will not be made out of the higher modulus graphites Meiser uses in his rods. Also, they will not utilize different type of graphite for different rod sections, as Meiser uses. The tapers will be Meiser's and they will perform well; but they will not be of the same performance level of Meiser's multi-modulus rods. Nor will they have the same high standards of cosmetics of Meiser's rods.

    Also, keep in mind that Mike is not a rod designer, he told Meiser what he wanted in a rod, Meiser built blanks, Mike tested the resulting rods, Meiser refined them based on Mike's input, Mike tested them again, etc. until Mike was happy with the result. Thus, the MKS series rods came into being.

    Yes, TFO's Meiser style rods (including the MKS type ones) will cast well enough. And they will be a good choice for those looking to or needing to spend less. However, please let's not delude ourselves into thinking they will be the equal of high end rods, including the Meiser's they are being based upon. IM6 is a good rod material; however, it doesn't have the performance of newer, higher modulus graphites, especially when you use different graphites in different sections of the rod optimized for their performance at that point in the rod's deflection curve.

    It is also nice that their are good 2-hand rods on the market now in the $250-$350 price range. However, this will not remove the market for high performance, high-end rods from companies like Sage, Loomis, Meiser, Burkheimer, T&T, CND, etc. Their will always be folks who will look for the highest perfomance 2-hander that suits their casting style and preferences, even among those who don't have the cash to spend on an $800.00 rod. Many of these folks will save for a few years and then buy the high end rod for the performance. They will then use that rod until it wears out, breaks, or they die. So please, let's not jump on the bandwagon that not everyone can afford a high end rods. The truth is we all can if we are willing to save for it and wait a few years until we have enough stashed away to get it.

    Also, keep in mind that companies like TFO are not innovating. They are simply using tapers and designs that the high end rod companies and builders have developed and thoroughly tested, they are not creating their own unique tapers. The Sages, Meiser's etc. of the world are the ones doing the actual development and refinement work. Then the TFO's come along, take the design, pay the developer a fee for using his work, and have them built offshore using cheap, sweatshop labor.

    I find it interesting that St. Croix can develop their own tapers and designs, use local labor in the Wisconsin town they are located in, and still have a 2-hander built for the same $350.00 retail price without using sweat shop labor in a foreign country. I guess St. Croix is able to get along with less profit per rod. I wonder why TFO can't do this.
     
  4. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

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    I don't think that anyone insinuated that this was going to replace the high end market. But perhaps this can refresh some of the pricing that is going on. Let's be honest, can anyone say that the Loomis Greased Line rods are worth nearly a Grand? The fit and finish stinks, especially compared to the rods put out by Burkie and Meiser.

    Also as for TFO not innovating, that's true, but hopefully this change will help drive some of the innovations (however slight) in taper design into the lower end market. In a lot of ways, this lower end market helps define and push the higher end along.

    I've often wondered this too. Is it all about profit margin, or are there other economics involved here? For instance, why is it almost as cheap to purchase a fly reel made in Germany (with high labor costs) that is shipped to the US, as it is to purchase a local product (take your pick!). In some cases I agree the comparison isn't fair, but some companies like St Croix seem to put out a very good product, made in the US, all with the same (or slightly higher) price point than other US companies.
     
  5. luckybalbowa

    luckybalbowa Member

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    When talking about meiser's rod designs, I heard that he doesnt actually make the rods himself, he specifies/designs a taper and has someone else build it. Could someone please validate/refute this information with authority.

    Thanks.
     
  6. Big Tuna

    Big Tuna Member

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    He doesn't roll the blanks. He designs them and has someone else roll them.
     
  7. alpinetrout

    alpinetrout Banned or Parked

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    That's a fact. The blanks are rolled by CTS in New Zealand.
     
  8. herl

    herl Member

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    I've often mused about why it is that TFO's business model is so widely accepted by fly fisherman, while when companies like Ross and Winston go overseas they are shuned and dumped on by the FFing community. I have come to the personal conclusion that it is b/c TFO has always been forthcomming and open about their manufacturing practices while others have been less than transparent. Also, I'm sure it helps that the end product is of high quality and the savings are passed on to the consumer.

    As a group it seems that FFishers are more socially aware than your average worm drowner. So I think its interesting companies like TFO have been so warmly embraced. I'd love to hear other's thoughts on this. Just cause I'm curious... This probably should have been a new thread.
     
  9. Big Tuna

    Big Tuna Member

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    It seems as though folks who object to outsourcing either have heartburn over jobs/work going over seas or think the quality suffers. To my knowledge, TFO has had its rods made overseas for as long as it has been in existence, or at least as long as its been fairly big on the national scene. People who buy TFO rods are looking for less expensive alternatives and aren't as concerned about fit and finish. Companies such as Ross and Winston have begun outsourcing more recently and those who object, likely do so on the basis of those jobs going overseas or believe the quality of the product has suffered. Just a thought.
     
  10. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

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    He has CTS roll them for him. He still has to do the taper design though
     
  11. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

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    The mantra of those companies for years was that the rods were made in the USA. For Ross, it appears that they even started a seperate entity "Ross Worldwide" to help protect that image. With Winston is another thing entirely. The were made in the USA, then started making rods overseas very quietly. All the while the quality started to suffer, but the prices remained very high....
     
  12. luckybalbowa

    luckybalbowa Member

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    It's pretty interesting to me how people value the rods built with cts blanks so much when compared with perhaps a TFO. Both rods are built overseas, but one is built by new zealanders, while the other comes from Korea. Does New Zealand have a deserved and long lasting reputation for top notch manufacturing of goods that I do not know about? What is the difference between CTS and TFO really? (besides what they say about themselves on their websites.)

    Don't get me wrong. I have heard great things about CTS stuff, but I just think its an interesting social construct that has been developed about the quality of manufacturing between different foreign countries.

    I think Meiser does some really awesome finish work. But recently I did not buy a Meiser because he used blanks that were built overseas. If not for my own rod building obsession, I would probably buy a Meiser finished rod from a Sage blank as he offers to do. I personally wouldnt buy a tfo either, although either rods might be the right choice for someone else. In fact I try to buy products from my hometown area if they are of comparable value (Vancouver,WA) knowing that these companies help my local community.

    I'm not trying to flame up on this post, but I'm wondering if anyone agrees with my method of purchasing. Or if you disagree, how do you purchase your gear? price only? quality only? location? etc. Some of you might notice that the social aspects of fly fishing interest me more than anything else except of course my own enjoyment of the sport.
     
  13. Brent Comer

    Brent Comer Member

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    This sounds like a topic for another thread. :thumb:

     
  14. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

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    FT mentioned:

    "I find it interesting that St. Croix can develop their own tapers and designs, use local labor in the Wisconsin town they are located in, and still have a 2-hander built for the same $350.00 retail price without using sweat shop labor in a foreign country. I guess St. Croix is able to get along with less profit per rod. I wonder why TFO can't do this."

    I've wondered a similar, but different thought. I wonder why Sage and Loomis can't do this.

    I don't buy Loomis rods because I don't care for their action, and I don't buy Sage rods (with 2 exceptions) because I consider them over-priced despite their design innovation and hi-tech materials. I do not expect any agreement about the pervasiveness of marketing hype in the fly fishing industry, but my observations persuade me that hype in the main ingredient serving the industry today. Therefore I'm rather pleased with the influx of quality fly rods from offshore sources.

    Sincerely,

    Salmo g.
     
  15. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

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    There are huge differences between CTS and the stuff from TFO. Materials, the kind of processes, the choice of tapers, etc. This isn't to say the Korean companys put out crap, but in general CTS is pushing out stuff that only other high end manufactuers can do (graphic scrim, multimodulus within the same section, etc...)...