Moving on with life: the Bush saga continues

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by TomB, Nov 3, 2004.

  1. Bob Triggs

    Bob Triggs Stop Killing Wild Steelhead!

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2003
    Messages:
    4,327
    Likes Received:
    1,124
    Location:
    Olympic Peninsula
    Home Page:
    KEN:

    Very well said. And so we do have to think of tomorrow, and what we will do today to make a positive difference.

    I will continue to work for the restoration of wild fish, Salmonids and especially Wild Steelhead here. It is not that there aren't other worthy species, because there are and most of them are not sporting species. I just find it works better for me to focus on things this way.

    I do wonder where Trout Unlimited will be in the time ahead. They are spending a fortune on the Deleware River to get flows and to champion protections for the "wild trout" of the Deleware River, when in fact these are not indigenous fish to that river system. They were planted, by the railroad company, to entice travelers to take the trains up to the Catskill Mountains to go fishing on the weekends and summers. True, that was a long time ago, and many of the fish in the Deleware are resident,feral trout now. Especially the Rainbows of the West Branch Deleware.

    But it just does not make sense to me that America's great "voice for cold water conservation and wild trout"would place such emphasis and effort on what is ostensibly a playground, while it apparantly ignores the
    precipitous decline of wild salmoinids here, especially the wild steelhead of western Washington's coastal rivers.

    So I will continue to write letters to managers, politicians, editors, businesses etc. You just cant stop. Not ever. It's a life's work. And no, thank you; I dont need another calendar or sheet of address labels!
     
  2. clockwork

    clockwork New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2004
    Messages:
    317
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    bothell township
    This was the Democratic Party's best chance to get the White House and they blew it.[/QUOTE]

    id say the democrats' best chance was in 2000 when we won both the popular and electoral but were prevented by the court system from counting the rest of the votes. i was a much bigger Gore fan than i was Kerry but still.

    of course Bush is the countries' choice when morality is concerned right? i suppose he thought god demanded of him the he file suit to circumvent democracy. Oh wait, according to Bush, its our 'enemies' that "HATE DEMOCRACY." and its perfectly moral to attack nations unprovoked as long as they are muslim and not christian.

    the choice is very disappointing. ive decided to put more emphasis on local politics. where it matters more anyways. plus at least i know the majority of washingtonians are smarter than i can say for most of the midwest and south. -ryan
     
  3. bugnuts

    bugnuts Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2003
    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    U.P., WA
    Man...you liberals are precious. Here I thought all the bitching and whining over the last few months was an attempt to persuade those undecided, unenlightened voters to support Kerry, but now I see that the bashing goes on uninterrupted by such a silly thing as the will of the majority of the people. Thank goodness we have you to keep us informed on all that is wrong in the minds of those citizens because you know better than they do.

    The beauty of the First Amendment is that you have a fundamental constitutional right to say whatever you want, but that no one is required to listen. :thumb:
     
  4. clockwork

    clockwork New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2004
    Messages:
    317
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    bothell township
    you thought the whining would stop?! what are you new? let the bashing and bitching continue!
     
  5. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2002
    Messages:
    667
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Tacoma, WA, USA.
    I guess that means President Bush can run again in 2008 if he didn't really win in 2000! :thumb:
     
  6. Kalm

    Kalm Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    Messages:
    446
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Cheney, The Dry Side
    It's been mentioned before that both parties are slaves to the same master. Say what you want about Michael Moore but most would agree he's right in stating the difference between Republicans and Dems is they both bend you over, the dems just make you feel good about it. But despite party similarities and both sides having a "big tent", the last four years have taught us that individuals or small groups within the party (e.g. neo-cons) can make earth shattering decisions.

    This election was no mandate. Like everything else in our culture, it boils down to superior marketing. The Republicans represent the party everyone is supposed to be. Moral and self reliant. But it seems like most are christian in lip-service only, and deep down identify more with the KY Jelly Wrestling scene from Old School than W's hard core piousness and bible study. And who doesn't want to latch on to the great American dream that you've achieved your standing in life exclusively through your own hard work, when in reality, very few, if any of us could have made it without big government. Each side's ideas are unproven, especially when it comes to economics, the Republican's message just sold better.

    Everyone talked about the anti-bush vote, including many liberals like myself who were discouraged by Kerry's mediocrity but knew this time getting Bush out of office trumped even considering a protest vote for Nader. But the more I think about it, the more it seems this vote was really about siding with the guys who have marketed the best message. Kerry was branded a liberal, and as we all know, nobody wants to side with one of those. Liberal =LOSER.

    This isn't sour grapes on my part. Just observations. Congrats to the Republicans and their marketing department, and as somebody already stated, the other side better improve it's machine.
     
  7. Zen Piscator

    Zen Piscator Supporting wild steelhead, gravel to gravel.

    Joined:
    May 7, 2004
    Messages:
    3,074
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    Missoula, MT
    Home Page:
    Peter please read,
    Fox news is about as fair balanced as a fight between Carrot Top and The Rock. For what reason do you view "liberals" as bad, or wrong. Open your eyes, please. It seems that many conservatives that are in office are concerned more about money than any other issue. It makes perfect since once you actually dig a little deeper and find out how much they spend. $20,000= 1 smart bomb, smallest kind they make. Ok, so lets take the budget for 50 of those bombs, and put in inner city schools. So, the schools these kids have to go to would actually be comparable to what middle class people have. Or, lets put that million dollars saved and toss it into Columbia basin fish restoration. We could restore all the Deschutes tribs that are so vital for their steelhead and nearly non-existent salmon barley holding on. Wouldn't that be great? But, it seems like some in office have a different idea of how things go. You could kill a whole load of Iraqi people with those 50 bombs. Hey, even women and children if you get lucky. 100,000 have fallen already, what’s 1,000 more. They are just all religious extremists right? They stand by the word of Ala. They govern their life according to their religion. Hm, sounds not so different from some of us... The thing that really irks me, is that there are hundreds upon hundreds of programs like the smart bombs that would be totally fine with a million $ taken from them. We could actually improve healthcare, or if we get real lucky, save some fish, maybe even a whole bunch. Im not ragging against all conservatives here, im sure not all care so much about war and killing. Conservative politicians scare me a lot. Right now im not sure how much different the democrats would be from the republicans, it seems like they are trying to become almost conservative in some of their views, its depressing. This is one of many reasons I have trouble accepting what is going on in Washington dc right now. It is just plain wrong. Did Jesus call for senseless killing in his bible? I don’t seem to remember that part. If bush is doing god's bidding right now, he must have misunderstood. ALOT.

    Peace,
    Andy
     
  8. Whitey

    Whitey Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,011
    Likes Received:
    199
    Location:
    Far side of the moon
    I've figured out why I'm so upset. Its because I have no voice. I'm in the middle, With the leftist peta freaks and gaywads on one side, the bible thumping goodie twoshoes on the other. What happened to being a moderate? The democratic party is lost. So far left, that my dad, I life long teamster(27yrs at Rainier beer) voted Bush. WTF???

    YT :beathead:
     
  9. Ken Hunter

    Ken Hunter Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Messages:
    155
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Shoreline, Wa, USA.
    Recently I found myself looking for the right thing to do. At that time I did not belong to any group. Each time I looked into the activities of a group I was turned off by political bias and lack of real action. In addition these groups seemed to want to change the world instead of being focused on an achievable goal.

    In the end I joined WSC. They seemed to have everything I wanted.

    For everyone interested in fishing, I hope they can find something constructive to do besides lip service. Personally I've spent too much time doing nothing. Its time for me to be more involved but in a constructive way.

    Ken
     
  10. o mykiss

    o mykiss Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2001
    Messages:
    1,394
    Likes Received:
    303
    Location:
    .
    Hey YT - as Flavor Flav once said "don't believe the hype." If you think the Demos are "so far left," you're being as snowed by the Karl Rove propaganda machine as apparently so many who voted for W this year have been. Rove and guys like Coho, Chadk, Cactus, Bugnuts and Bright Rivers like to frame the Demos as concerned only about ramming through gay marriage and women's unfettered right to a late term "partial birth abortions." Guess what, fellas, that's not what I'm focused on and it's not what the vast majority of Demos are focused on. I feel pretty confident that those issues were not even remotely on the minds of the vast majority of the 50 million people who voted for Kerry a few days ago, and anyone suggests that a Kerry-Edwards administration would have focused on them is blowing smoke. There are a lot of Republicans who know that this tarring of the Democratic Party as far left wackos is a bunch of bullshit propaganda, but they have many willing listeners so they keep it up. Let's face it, this process of demonization has been incredibly effective with a huge swath of the electorate that by and large isn't really willing to take a hard look at the real issues. Mean time, keep in mind that things we take for granted like Social Security, Medicare, the right of unions to organize, civil rights, workplace health and safety, environmental regulation and a long list of other mainstream ideas were birthed, by and large, by Democrats. And even though a lot of Republicans want people to believe that a Democrat's religiosity is somehow inferior to their own, don't believe it. The establishment clause of the First Amendment is a 200+ year old reminder of a proud American belief that a person can believe in God and a secular society at the same time.
     
  11. Steve Buckner

    Steve Buckner Mother Nature's Son

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    1,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    Toledo, Wa. on the banks of the Cowlitz
    Home Page:
    I've said it before but I find the definitions of Conservative and Liberal very interesting. Here is the Merriam Webster definition of both:

    Conservative
    Etymology: from the word Conserve
    1 : to keep in a safe or sound state <he conserved his inheritance>; especially : to avoid wasteful or destructive use of <conserve natural resources>
    2 : to preserve with sugar
    3 : to maintain (a quantity) constant during a process of chemical, physical, or evolutionary change

    Liberal:
    Function: adjective
    Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin liberalis suitable for a freeman, generous, from liber free; perhaps akin to Old English lEodan to grow, Greek eleutheros free
    1 a : of, relating to, or based on the liberal arts <liberal education> b archaic : of or befitting a man of free birth
    2 a : marked by generosity : OPENHANDED <a liberal giver> b : given or provided in a generous and openhanded way <a liberal meal> c : AMPLE, FULL
    3 obsolete : lacking moral restraint : LICENTIOUS
    4 : not literal or strict : LOOSE <a liberal translation>
    5 : BROAD-MINDED; especially : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms
    6 a : of, favoring, or based upon the principles of liberalism b capitalized : of or constituting a political party advocating or associated with the principles of political liberalism; especially : of or constituting a political party in the United Kingdom associated with ideals of individual especially economic freedom, greater individual participation in government, and constitutional, political, and administrative reforms designed to secure these objectives

    What is ultimately so fascinating is that based upon the definitions, one would think that liberals would want to exploit and conservatives would want to protect. Ironically, the exact opposite is the case.

    Conservatives aren't really interested in conserving anything from what I can tell. Big business is completely congruent with Conservatives. Give the the average household a $400.00 a year tax break at the expense of Medicare, the Federal deficit etc.. Those who have made the most money will benefit the most. If there is a buck to be made at the expense of another country, of the environment, or from another person, all is fair game. While they claim to have the bible as their moral justification, their actions are completely opposite. As long as they have their right to bear arms, they're happy. They oppose gay marriage, are opposed to abortion, but are pro war and the death penalty. They want to opportunity to take those poor individuals that have sinned and send them back to heaven. They see religion and politics as one in the same. They don't mind if people are of different religions, as long as they're all Christian. Ironic.

    Liberals on the other hand, are interested in conserving. Those who have made the most money should pay the most, they have the most to give. The average american pays more taxes and loses more benefits each and every year, and the liberals can see the toll that it has taken. Liberals are afraid of what greed has done to the country and to it's leaders. Liberals tend to have a "live and let live" attitude. If you want to believe in God, great. If you don't, that's fine too. Are you some religious zealot? That's ok, jsut keep it to yourself. Liberals would rather have someone base their actions upon solid moral values, not necessarily what they prayed about last night. Liberals want a solid line between church and state because they can see self rightoues attitudes displayed in politics and believe they have no business there. Liberals are extremely concerned with the environment and the damage that big business has done to it. They like there open spaces, wild fish, etc..

    I have yet to hear a sound argument about how the Republicans have protected or conserved anything that is wild. If somebody has information, solid sources, I'd love to see it. When was there a republican president in office who set acreage aside for National Park Development, tightened EPA standards, fined big business for their destruction and not rewarded it, protected valuable forests and ecosystems, and sided with the Endangered Species act? And don't think for a minute that the "Healthy Forest" initiative is about creating healthy forests...

    Help us poor liberals understand how you're fearless leader is going to save wild steelhead and salmon runs. Help us understand how our environment, the water we drink and the air we breath will be better. Help us understand how benevolent the Republican party is. Help us understand how we're better off invading Iraq. Help us understand how the war in Iraq has reduced the terror threat, that there is no connection between Cheney and Haliburton, that the folks at Enron were not out to take away pensions and 401K's.
     
  12. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2002
    Messages:
    667
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Tacoma, WA, USA.
    You paint with a mighty wide brush, my friend! To know what I think without ever meeting me is quite the skill. How do you do it?

    Since you know me so well, please inform everyone of my specific religious beliefs and my sexual preference. How often do I attend church? Please, fill everyone in!

    The only insults I have seen in this thread have been aimed at conservatives. We've been called fascists, ignorant, crooks, greedy, zealots, intollerant, homophobes, etc. Ken made a good point about sitting down and talking. But why should conservatives want to sit down with liberals that show the attitudes shown here? Reach out our hands only to have it spit upon? To be insulted? No thanks! We don't need to.

    Maybe instead of insulting us and considering us your "enemy", you should try getting to know us. But apparently, you think you already do!

    If you actually were to have a conversation with us, instead of insulting us; show some of the tollerance that liberals claim to have, you would find out that we come by our beliefs in a sincere way just as do you. You would find that we only want the best for this country as do you. I don't consider your beliefs evil just because I disagree with them, I just feel that they are wrong or ineffective.

    It's your choice. You can either try to understand and live with the majority in this country. Or you can continue to hurl invectives and isolate yourselfs more and more into ever shrinking "blue" areas.
     
  13. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2002
    Messages:
    667
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Tacoma, WA, USA.
    Yellowstone National Park, 1872, the first National Park, was established by President US Grant, Republican.

    Office of Science and Technology Policy, 1976, President Gerald Ford, Republican.

    National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, 1970, President Richard Nixon, Republican.

    African Development Agency, 1984, President Ronald Reagan, Republican.

    Consumer Product Safety Commission, 1973, Richard Nixon, Republican.

    Environmental Protection Agency, 1970, Richard Nixon, Republican.

    Teddy Roosevelt, Republican, created over 150,000,000 acres of National Parks and Forests.

    Steve, you really are too smart to be believing this garbage of Democrat, good; Republican, bad!
     
  14. Steve Buckner

    Steve Buckner Mother Nature's Son

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    1,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    Toledo, Wa. on the banks of the Cowlitz
    Home Page:
    Cactus,
    The shrinking Blue is 49% of the popular majority. If the voting results were correct, the Republicans won by 2%. It stands to reason that the results could be within a margin of error. Nonetheless, it is not an overwhelming majority as you imply.

    For some reason, I thought Teddy Roosevelt was a democrat...thanks for the correction! So 100 years ago there was a republican president who was interested in saving the forests!!!

    The picture that I paint of the republican party, is in large part accurate. It is mostly made up of neo-conservative, religiously oriented (I should further clarify this to be christian) people. The nature of the republican party is for big business. They are anti-abortion, pro-war, pro death penalty. It was this same agenda that the Bush administration sold to the american public. It has been stated that the number one reason that more people (remember, it was only 2% more) voted republican in this election was because of their aversion to gay marriage. Dispute any of this.

    But the challenge still exists, how will the republican agenda save our wild forests, the water that we drink, the air we breath, and the fish that we all claim to love? GWB has rolled back so many of the EPA restrictions. At this point, he doesn't even recognize global warming. What's up with that?

    Remember how proposed changes are for Wild fish to be counted the same as hatchery fish? Much of the forests have now been designated as areas to be harvested, and he's paving the way to drill for oil in the Alaskan wilderness. He stated on his last visit to Washington that there would be no dam removal on the Columbia. I cannot see how his agenda and the party that he has been elected from, are going to be good for those things that I've listed.

    At this point, there's no turning back. It's pointless to debate the outcome of the election, GWB is president. In 4 years, I hope that the planet is in better shape, that the fish have been given more opportunities to succeed, not less. I hope that the I'll have to eat my words and realize that GWB was the best thing that ever happened, but if the past 4 years are any indication, I'm skeptical at best.

    Cactus, although I disagree with the republican position, thank you for your input and in your ability to debate the issues intelligently.
     
  15. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2002
    Messages:
    667
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Tacoma, WA, USA.
    And your picture is based on what? What you see on CBS? What you read in The New York Times? A personal aquaintance with many conservatives? I could just as easily make the observation that the Democrat Party nature is pacifist, pro-abortion, anti-death penalty, anti-business and for income redistribution. However, I'm aware that, while in large part accurate, it does not represent every Democrat just as your description does not represent every Republican.

    And to be accurate, President Bush had a 3-1/2% lead over Sen. Kerry as the minor parties received a total of 1-1/2% of the vote. No Democrat has received this large of a total vote percentage since LBJ in 1964. Additionally, the Republicans picked up 4 Senate seats and added to their majority in the House. President Bush is the first President to win increases in both chambers while winning re-election since FDR in 1936.

    So those trying to dismiss this as a particularily close election, it is mostly wishful thinking.

    I hear all of this talk about EPA rollbacks yet I have yet to see any signifigant evidence of it. Are you saying that all past EPA regulations were perfect as written and need no modifications to fit current situations? The conservative position is that it is more productive to offer incentives than simply punishment for industry.

    A perfect example is the old coal fired power plants in the north-east. Many of them are old, obsolete and very dirty. Current laws require that no improvements can be done to them without bringing them up to current emission standards. This is economically unviable. Power costs are regulated and the costs to basically rebuild them could never be recovered. There are affordable improvements that could be made to these plants that would not only allow more power to be produced, but would result in a signifigant reduction (but not within current standards) in emissions from these plants. So, while the intent of the law is admirable, the actual result of it is that these dirty power plants stay on line and a reduction in emissions is not happening.

    Just locking up the forests will not save them. Haven't we learned anything from the disasterous fires over the last ten years? President Bush has basically proposed enforcing the Clinton negotiated forest agreement and to allow thinning of the forests. It was just announced this week, that LA had the lowest air pollution levels of the last 20 plus years.

    To be fair, President Bush does "recognize" global warming. What he differs with is the cause. There is evidence to indicate it is a natural cycle as well as evidence to indicate it as man made. Now to be perfectly honest, I do feel that the environment is one of his weakest points, but he is hardly as disasterous as many would have us believe.

    I agree with the need to drill in ANWAR, as do the Eskimos living there! To drill in 4% of the reserve, as proposed will do little damage. And one thing people need to understand is that ANWAR is not a designated wilderness area.

    People keep talking about the need to reduce our need for foreign oil, but until other tecnologies become common place and economically viable, we will still need to drill for oil. As a matter of fact, President Bush is the only president to propose government funding for hydrogen technology.

    As far as the dams go, I think Seattle should lead by example and remove the Ballard Locks and the Montlake Cut to restore the fish runs in the Cedar River and the habitat lost when Lake Washington was lowered. :cool: