Mt Rainier Tragedy Opens Nonsense Debate

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Desolate, Jan 3, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2004
    Messages:
    9,798
    Likes Received:
    5,304
    Location:
    Your City ,State
    Being armed does not insure a safe outcome. Ranger Anderson was armed and well trained at Quantico, the FBI Academy. I was reminded that this also means trained to assume the worst whenever a car blows past any kind of checkpoint, even when it's just for snow tires. Yet Barnes was able to stop near her road block and draw, aim, and fire his rifle hitting Anderson multiple times before she could act. He also shot at, and missed the ranger following behind. Sometimes things go wrong.

    As for the former law prohibiting firearms in national parks, it dates to the early years of the national park system and was directed at reducing poaching of wildlife. Law or no law, it makes no difference when a criminal suspect comes into the park.

    Sg
     
  2. jason.allen

    jason.allen Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    Messages:
    186
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    seattle, wa
    Why is this post not about how there needs to be a better debriefing program for people exiting the military (honorable and dishonorable)? I dont see how a person can come back from war and live like a normal person. Obviously this guy was pretty screwed up. I mean afterall, he did get a ticket for poaching and based on the amount of poaching and illegal fishing I see and call into the hotline for, you would have to be pretty stupid to actually be cited for it. Also, this may seem a bit off color but does anyone know if he had a WDFW parking pass, Discover pass, or a U.S. forest pass when he parked his vehicle?
     
  3. lylelovett666

    lylelovett666 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2008
    Messages:
    608
    Likes Received:
    112
    Location:
    seattle,wa
    I know the constitution has been amended but there has never been a fundamental change like making gun ownership a privilege rahter than a right.Imo if the Const is a living breathing document than it has no value at all.Framing it in such a way gives any one in power the ability twist it into any form they wish.Like making gun ownership a privilege.
     
  4. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2006
    Messages:
    7,586
    Likes Received:
    2,639
    Location:
    Ruby Valley, MT
    Wow, I'm not sure whether WTF or HFS is the appropriate response :eek:

    I do however wholeheartedly agree with the last paragraph. Well, perhaps still on the fence about the use of a gun to procure food... pretty sure that's still a crime at Safeway ;)
     
  5. Josh

    Josh dead in the water

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2006
    Messages:
    3,621
    Likes Received:
    1,215
    Location:
    NW Washington
    Guns go bang.
     
  6. Mark Moore

    Mark Moore Just a Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2008
    Messages:
    824
    Likes Received:
    145
    Location:
    Vancouver, Wa.
    Bingo!
     
  7. Mark Moore

    Mark Moore Just a Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2008
    Messages:
    824
    Likes Received:
    145
    Location:
    Vancouver, Wa.
    This is substantially how I feel about Voting Rights.......
     
  8. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Messages:
    19,549
    Likes Received:
    4,546
    Location:
    Kitsap Peninsula
    No, no, no. Just because someone served time in the military, even as warfighter, does not make them capable of this indiscriminate crime against another human. There is a difference and the difference is clear in my mind. If it is not clear in yours, perhaps you should seek help from a mental health professional before there are more stories in the newspaper. I have the ability to make decisions about the outcome of an event. That which I can control and choose to control is as much a part of me as anything else.

    This criminal act against another human was not in a war zone with all the survival senses on high alert. It was a senseless homocide by someone who was broken. All service members, current and past, are not the same. It is insulting to make such an associative generalization.
     
  9. Upton O

    Upton O Blind hog fisherman

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Messages:
    2,521
    Likes Received:
    677
    Location:
    out of state now
    Home Page:
    In support of Ed (aka Mumbles) comment, the VAST majority of veterans, especially combat vets, avoid violence at all costs. They've seen enough to last many lifetimes. In the case of the veteran of subject, there are many, many questions that need to be answered to get insight into his erratic, crazy behavior. I worked with hundreds of combat vets over a 24 year career as a therapist, there is more that meets the eye in this case. There are personal history questions that need to be examined and, given his extreme body building focus, I would ask about steroid use (a serious problem in some locations in the military), also use of other substances. There is also the possible issue of traumatic brain injury which is the "syndrome of Iraq" for the current veteran population similar to what PTSD was for the Vietnam era.

    As for outreach for military personnel and veterans, the biggest issue is mistrust of anything government. The military is shifting, albeit slowly, in it's approach to helping active duty folks in their struggles. The VA has an active, though frequently ineffective, outreach program for veterans. (If you were a combat veteran would you try to walk into the behemoth VA hospital in Seattle and try to ask a total stranger how you get help in resolving the most horrible experiences of your life?)

    There are a number of combat vets on this forum, they own weapons and, as civilians, have never pointed them at another human let alone pulled the trigger. You won't even know they are carrying.

    You know what scares the crap out of me? It isn't veterans with firearms, it's all of the idiots with their "smart phones" texting while they are driving 4000+ lb vehicles at 40+ mph thinking they aren't impaired and dangerous. And I have to deal with these IDIOTS daily.
     
  10. Brian White

    Brian White Recovering Bugmeister

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2009
    Messages:
    632
    Likes Received:
    289
    Location:
    Further from MT than I'd like (B-vue, WA)
    Not trying to start a separate thread but the Bill of Rights itself - which among other things included the 2nd Amendment and as a general statement was filled with some pretty big ticket items - was not part of the Constitution when ratified in 1787. It was not ratified until 1791. Additionally, amendments themselves (27 ratified to date over the last few hundred years) are by definition considered changes to "fundamental law" in the U.S. I may have misread Richard O's post - and yours so apologies in advance if that is the case - but that seems to goes to the very heart of his point.

    I wonder if women and African-Americans would agree with the contention that there haven't been any fundamental changes in the foundations of U.S. law since the late 18th century? I will dig up my jock and hard cup out of my closet and then go ask my wife :)

    Happy New Year everyone! Disappointed in myself that I added to this thread instead of spending the time daydreaming about fly-fishing...
     
  11. dflett68

    dflett68 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2010
    Messages:
    657
    Likes Received:
    244
    Location:
    snohomish
    it's human nature to fear change, even in a nation that was founded on it.
     
  12. Alex MacDonald

    Alex MacDonald that's His Lordship, to you.....

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2008
    Messages:
    5,006
    Likes Received:
    2,355
    Location:
    Haus Alpenrosa, Lederhosenland
    Interesting thought from some of you: Since last year, firearms are permitted at national parks IF they are concealed and carried by those of us who have CCW permits. I pack mine in Yellowstone, Glacier, and most other places as well. The NPS policy change was forced upon them most likely because of the Heller decision.

    I recall three women being raped and murdered in Yosemite almost a decade ago. My question then-as it is now, is if they would still have become victims if they'd been armed. Study the responses of criminals concerning their feelings about concealed carry, and you'll find the huge majority of them will go elsewhere, quickly.

    Questioning if the Constitution is somehow an outmoded document since it dates from the 18th century however, is a simplistic, common question. The answer lies in a study of the philosophy involved in the creation of the document. That, I find, is timeless.
     
  13. FT

    FT Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2005
    Messages:
    1,351
    Likes Received:
    207
    Location:
    Burlington, WA
    Seems like most folks have gotten it wrong. The gun is the culprit. It loaded itself, put itself in the shooter's vehicle, put itself in the shooter's hand, pointed itself at the ranger, and then pulled its own trigger to shoot and kill the ranger. Just like all its cousin guns do whenever someone (or some animal) gets shot and killed. Heck they even shoot themselves at clay targets, bulls eyes, traffic signs, billboards, glass bottles, cans, etc. No siree, ya just can't trust them guns atall!!!
     
  14. Nooksack Mac

    Nooksack Mac Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,246
    Likes Received:
    290
    Location:
    Bellingham, WA, USA.
    I apologize in advance for raising a trivial side issue to this important thread about two tragedies. Does anybody else want to raise objection to the fact that the Park Service closed this important National Park for about a week. Why? Of course they had a moving "crime scene" to examine. But since it was a straightforward incident involving few people, why couldn't that have been done in 24 hours? Once again acting as though they own the people's park that they supervise, dozens of Park Svc. employees gave themselves an unscheduled vacation, at the expense of hundreds of the public.
     
  15. gearhead

    gearhead Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2004
    Messages:
    670
    Likes Received:
    44
    Location:
    Renton, wa
    seriously????
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.