Mt Rainier Tragedy Opens Nonsense Debate

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Desolate, Jan 3, 2012.

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  1. Upton O

    Upton O Blind hog fisherman

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    :beathead:iagree
     
  2. Richard Olmstead

    Richard Olmstead BigDog

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    HUH? While I agree that it seems like they could have reopened sooner, my educated guess is that all Park Service employees were at work last week (and many probably took advantage of the absence of visitors to catch up on a lot of back work that had been set aside over recent weeks/months/years at a typically understaffed/overworked Park) and the hourly wage earners who work for the concessions had an unplanned and unpaid leave.

    D
     
  3. John Dude

    John Dude Learned skills from George Dickel

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    Isn't that a bumper sticker?
     
  4. hikepat

    hikepat Patrick

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    Gun Wisdom.........

    Some words to the wise. Shooting Advice from various Conceal Carry
    Instructors. If you own a gun, you will appreciate this. If not, you should
    get one and learn how to use it:

    Guns have only two enemies - rust and politicians.

    It's always better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

    Cops carry guns to protect themselves, not you.

    Never let someone or something that threatens you get inside arm's length.

    Never say "I've got a gun". If need to use deadly force, the first sound
    they hear should be the safety clicking off.

    The average response time of a 911 call is 23 minutes, the response time of
    a .357 is 1400 feet per second.

    The most important rule in a gunfight is: Always win - cheat if necessary.

    Make your attacker advance through a wall of bullets . . .
    You may get killed with your own gun, but he'll have to beat you to death
    with it, 'cause it'll be empty.

    If you're in a gun fight:
    If you're not shooting, you should be loading.
    If you're not loading, you should be movin'.
    If you're not movin', you're dead.

    In a life and death situation, do something . . . It may be wrong, but do
    something!

    If you carry a gun, people call you paranoid. Nonsense! If you have a gun,
    what do you have to be paranoid about?

    You can say 'stop' or 'alto' or any other word, but a large bore muzzle
    pointed at someone's head is pretty much a universal language.

    You cannot save the planet, but you may be able to save yourself and your
    family.

    If you believe in the 2nd Amendment, please forward.
    I did not write but thought it fit the conversation
     
  5. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

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    Words to live by... along with one other: "the sound of a pump shotgun being chambered is often the only one needed" ;)
     
  6. lylelovett666

    lylelovett666 Active Member

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  7. Jim Ficklin

    Jim Ficklin Genuine Montana Fossil

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    Bingo & ever the voice of reason. Thanks, Ed! As for me, I may someday again be targeted as a potential victim, but then as before I won't be a "helpless victim." Works for and will continue to work for me.
     
  8. dflett68

    dflett68 Active Member

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    disclaimer: i like guns and grew up with them, and own them, and would carry them for self defense if i thought i needed to. i also grew up with a law enforcement father who was trained at quantico over and over and who knows where else the govt sent him. he was a range instructor for a federal law enforcement agency for two decades - not just shooting targets but all the law enforcement scenarios you can picture: sniper, raid, under-cover, etc. - and had a long career. i'm just saying i've heard a lot about gun fights and training for them all my life from the horse's mouth. so when i read the way so many of you guys talk on here about the value of a gun for self defense it just strikes me as strange. you've got a gun and therefore you won't be helpless? we'll all be safe when we are all armed and trained to shoot before the other guy? the list of what-if's you could throw at such bravado would just get too long for a post here. the statistical probability of anyone needing a gun in a conflict in the woods is crazy low. the further probability that the average guy who owns a gun, and even has some training with it, will be able to react and shoot before it's too late is even lower, and the lowest probability of all is that such a person would fucking hit anything on purpose when they shot under life-threatening circumstances - which would certainly be unlike any fantasy they have played out in their head about their own courage and skill. the bravado is comical. probably the only people on this forum who would really be solid in a gun-fight are the kind who would never post about it. imo the best thing you can arm yourself with for self-defense is the wisdom to identify and avoid such conflicts before they develop. carry the gun too, i'm not against that. but all the big talk is hollow.
     
  9. Brian Miller

    Brian Miller Be vewy vewy qwiet, I'm hunting Cutthwoat Twout

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    My wife and I watched the memorial service for Ranger Anderson. A two year old daughter and a four year old daughter have lost their Mommy, and a grieving husband has lost his beloved. It breaks my heart.
    Thank You, MHO also
     
  10. PT

    PT Physhicist

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    Appreciate your insight and think that for the most part you're spot on. But, I'm glad you weren't this person's grief counseler after her husband passed. The responsibility lies with the person who decides to arm themselves, not someone else who thinks they know what's best for them.

    A young Oklahoma mother shot and killed an intruder to protect her 3-month-old baby on New Year's Eve, less than a week after the baby's father died of cancer.
    Sarah McKinley says that a week earlier a man named Justin Martin dropped by on the day of her husband's funeral, claiming that he was a neighbor who wanted to say hello. The 18-year-old Oklahoma City area woman did not let him into her home that day.

    On New Year's Eve Martin returned with another man, Dustin Stewart, and this time was armed with a 12-inch hunting knife. The two soon began trying to break into McKinley's home.

    As one of the men was going from door to door outside her home trying to gain entry, McKinley called 911 and grabbed her 12-gauge shotgun.

    McKinley told ABC News Oklahoma City affiliate KOCO that she quickly got her 12 gauge, went into her bedroom and got a pistol, put the bottle in the baby's mouth and called 911.

    "I've got two guns in my hand -- is it okay to shoot him if he comes in this door?" the young mother asked the 911 dispatcher. "I'm here by myself with my infant baby, can I please get a dispatcher out here immediately?"

    The 911 dispatcher confirmed with McKinley that the doors to her home were locked as she asked again if it was okay to shoot the intruder if he were to come through her door.

    "I can't tell you that you can do that but you do what you have to do to protect your baby," the dispatcher told her. McKinley was on the phone with 911 for a total of 21 minutes.

    When Martin kicked in the door and came after her with the knife, the teen mom shot and killed the 24-year-old. Police are calling the shooting justified.

    "You're allowed to shoot an unauthorized person that is in your home. The law provides you the remedy, and sanctions the use of deadly force," Det. Dan Huff of the Blanchard police said.

    Stewart soon turned himself in to police.

    McKinley said that she was at home alone with her newborn that night because her husband just died of cancer on Christmas Day.

    "I wouldn't have done it, but it was my son," McKinley told ABC News Oklahoma City affiliate KOCO. "It's not an easy decision to make, but it was either going to be him or my son. And it wasn't going to be my son. There's nothing more dangerous than a woman with a child."
     
  11. Jim Ficklin

    Jim Ficklin Genuine Montana Fossil

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    dflett, My intent was to state my opinion & personal preference, not get in a flame war with someone such as yourself for example who knows absolutely NOTHING about me or my level of proficiency and experience. However, I respect your right to have an opinion, also.
     
  12. dflett68

    dflett68 Active Member

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    Can't imagine how this relates to what I said. Sounds like she went through something terrible and I am grieved myself reading the story. If I had been her grief counselor, I can't imagine guns coming up. I'm armed myself, and I opened my post by saying so, and closed it by affirming anyone who wants to do the same. I was just trying to call out the lack of realism about some posts - most posts - I see here relative to what a confrontation involving guns is really like, and how confident carrying a gun should really make us. And to that point, would this armed woman have been able to react and protect herself and her baby if those guys had not been bumbling fools and given her so much time to prepare and respond? Of course not. I'm glad it worked for her, but I'm also pointing out the incredible rarity of such a scenario with regard to defending oneself with a gun. All respect to this woman, and anyone who has been a victim of violent/invasive crime. We all have a right to arm, defend, and protect ourselves and the ones we love.
     
  13. Lugan

    Lugan Joe Streamer

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    Damn, we live in a scary and strange country. People in no other country in the developed world have these kinds of discussions.
     
  14. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

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    And that's what makes the USA unique... freedom.
     
  15. dflett68

    dflett68 Active Member

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    Jim, I shouldn't have quoted you directly, I'm sorry. I don't know you, as you said, and I assume you're a good honest guy and you've got every right to protect yourself. Best wishes.
     
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