NFR 5 Deer Hunters Shot

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by coonrad, Nov 21, 2004.

  1. Nooksack Mac

    Nooksack Mac Active Member

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    A few random thoughts:

    This kind of tragic outcome to a day of deer hunting in the local woods is incredibly rare. In about 50 years as a hunter and reader of outdoor magazines, I don't recall hearing of a similar incident - which is astonishing when we consider that deer hunting areas are often very crowded, especially around opening day, that deer often run out of sight before expiring, leading to honest (and dishonest) disagreements among armed strangers over who killed the deer. (It brings to mind Robert Heinlein's observation: An armed society is a polite society.)

    Second, the shooter is a Vietnamese immigrant and a military veteran. He may have, in his past, hunted and/or been hunted by armed enemies. As a foreigner, he may well have felt like a "stranger in a strange land," surrounded by armed and hostile strangers challenging him in a language that he may not understand well.

    Or it may turn out that he's just a malevolent, sociopathic poacher whose victims were entirely innocent. But as facts continue to emerge, this almost writes itself as an episode of "Law & Order."

    :confused:
     
  2. troutfanatic

    troutfanatic A day not spent wasted is.....wasted.

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    Look its not about the guns. It was never about the guns. I began with how violent Americans are IN GENERAL when compared to other developed nations. When you compare the United States of America to ANY other single developed country you will find that we have a much higher murder and crime rate. If you looked at the website (Second set of data) you would see that the methods of murder was broken down by percentage and guns just happened to be leading choice of weapon for murders.

    Thanks, you just proved my main point, Americans are more violent and cannot seem to control themselves even when compare to countries that have the same kind of killing opportunity or greater (even when they have fully automatic weapons).

    If you have ever lived in Europe, you would understand. Here in the US if someone really pisses a person off, often that person wants to fight them right then and there. Its alot of yelling and shoving and eventually at the bare minimum punches are thrown. At the most somebody or several somebodies are killed.

    In Europe the most you will see is Maybe some yelling and at the extreme a fistfight. Matterfact I have never even seen a fight in Europe except London.

    When I visited New York City I saw two robberies and three fights in ONE day.

    I have never seen violence to that extent in Paris, Copenhagen, Amsterdam, London, or Zurich.


    Yeah since that kind of thinking has been working SO WELL so far. New evidence is availble. We, as a country, are violent. We need to examine our own society.
     
  3. troutfanatic

    troutfanatic A day not spent wasted is.....wasted.

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    Obviously good ole Rob didn't ever visit the United States of America :rofl: where we have the biggest a$$holes, highest crime rate, and the most guns per person than any other country in the world.

    Troutfanatic
     
  4. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

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    Not true!

    Russia has a higher murder rate than the U.S. and Great Briton has a higher overall crime rate.

    As for a$$holes; well, I guess I don't know the same people as you do! :D
     
  5. Bob Triggs

    Bob Triggs Stop Killing Wild Steelhead!

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    When I lived in New York City I never experienced a crime personally and never saw one committed. And it was considered Crime Central USA.

    Well, except that Brooklyn Dodgers thing... :hmmm:

    I liked Mike Etgen's input here. America is a violent culture. If you took away all of the guns tomorrow it would not end. It might decrease a bit, but it would not end the violence. That is built into our culture.

    And that our country is a mixture of so many different peoples, from so many different lands, all attracted to the American Dream, which includes the old Colonial-Militia-Cowboy-Pioneer-thing, could actually set us up for more misunderstandings and violence. And it dosn't help us that people are breeding like flies and the national population has more than doubled since the end of World War II.

    When I was a kid it was a big deal to see blood portrayed on the movie screen. Now they explode the head off a guy after they wring his neck with their bare hands, and still it seems there's not enough. You can now go onto the internet and watch videos of the terrorists slowly cutting a person's head off with a steak knife. There was a time when, if a police officer was killed in the line of duty anywhere in America, it became a national incident, and everyone stopped to lower a flag and mourne our loss. Today they count them annually and hardly anyone notices. This is a serious loss of sensitivity to violence in our society.

    It's not just an American idea, this notion of blood sacrifice,revenge and violence. Some people are still living with an Old Testament paradigm, and that includes several millennia of bloodshed.

    So any ten year old today can sit at home and experience the entire gamut of human cruelty and pain in a matter of moments. I dont know what this does to the human psyche, but it can't be all good. For one thing I believe it is a form of psychological abuse, and conditioning to the option of violence as a solution to one's problems.

    On the one hand death and suffering are a fact of life in this world; everything lives at the expense or benefit of something else. It is unavoidable. But the deliberate use of extreme violence as a form of entertainment, with no appearant end in sight, seems to desensitize one to the realities of what they are viewing. Rape and violence are part of the entertainment script in many cultures nowadays. But I believe America, and the movie/video industry, really launched it on it's new and extreme way.

    Until we value peace, forgiveness and love- communication and understanding- at least as much as we value hate and revenge and blame, we don't stand a chance of improving life in America, or the world.

    Having or not having guns won't make a bit of difference. Nothing can stop a psychotic sociopath from deciding to use a weapon to hurt or kill someone, so laws don't regulate those people's behavior. The immediate, prevailing psychological social climate might be of more influence on such a person than any law or rule, or threat of consequence.

    The only real difference one can make is to look at themselves, their own attitudes and behavior and speech. That is where the real change begins.
     
  6. cuponoodle breakfast

    cuponoodle breakfast Bigfoot is blurry

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    The gun used in the Wisconsin killings was legal all through the "assault weapons ban." The same damage could have been done with a less ominous looking rifle too. The SKS used is no more powerful than standard deer hunting rifles. In fact, the round it fires is a little more tame than most. The 20 round magazine could have been replaced by quick reloading as more members of the other hunting party arrived.
    The guns are here by the millions. It would be impossible to get rid of them.
     
  7. cuponoodle breakfast

    cuponoodle breakfast Bigfoot is blurry

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    I agree that it's a cultural issue. How many of those 10,000 are police shootings, suicides, accidents, and self defense? How many were over bad drug deals?
     
  8. troutfanatic

    troutfanatic A day not spent wasted is.....wasted.

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    I do not know Cup, the statistics from the Department of Justice just listed the 10,000 plus numbers as the total amount of murders. Look at the website I originally posted. Accidents and suicides were not included in the statistics and shooting a cop is still murder no matter even if they are in "harms way."

    troutfanatic
     
  9. troutfanatic

    troutfanatic A day not spent wasted is.....wasted.

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    Russian is not a fully industrialized capitalistic country. They don't even have a effective government right now. It will take atleast another decade for this country to get its act together. Any political or economics expert would agree. As for the US and Great Britan, we have two of the oldest governments in the world (US is actually the oldest government on earth).

    The USSR collapesed only 5 or 6 years ago. You can't compare the two. In Russia right now you can do ANYTHING if you have enough rubles to pay for it.

    I guess for the a$$hole thing if you watch any kind of news or read any papers from other countries you will find how little of the news deals with a hit and run of a five year old, a killing and raping of elderly woman, or three kids beating a homeless man to death. Americans think america is the center of the universe and doesn't carry any faults. They should take a look around.

    Troutfanatic
     
  10. Bob Triggs

    Bob Triggs Stop Killing Wild Steelhead!

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    Any time a firearm, any type of firearm, is used in the commission of a crime, especially one as hienous as this, those who would seek to "get all of the guns off of the street and out of people's hands", will use the event as fodder for their arguement. I have no doubt that this will become the springboard for a tide of accusations and " I-Told-You-So's" from the anti-gun fraternity.

    But we still have the problem of what is in people's minds to deal with. Removing guns from otherwise responsible people's use and ownership will not solve the problems of violence in the American mentality, or anywhere else. In fact, where gun bans have been employed, it created a whole new set of problems.

    This "Assault Weapon" thing is baloney. After the world wars there was something called the "Division of Civilian Marksmanship", and they had a program where any law abiding citizen could legally aquire and own a deaquisitioned military surplus rifle, mostly the old 30-06 Springfield rifles, and some 30-30 Carbines, and more recently some Garand 308 carbines. You had to take a program and qualify on the firearm to get it, and it was cheap too.

    This program was administered by the War department and the NRA, who also administered most of the safety training and handling, shooting programs for every police department in the country. For many decades the NRA set the foundation standard for marksmanship and gun safety with the military. All of those guns could have been called "assault weapons".

    The use of that term today is a theatrical attempt to demonize an inanimate object. It does nothing to address the problems of crime and violence in America. Even a base ball bat can be called an "assault weapon" in the wrong hands. People love to use statistical quotes with these things. But if you look it up, I mean really research it, you wont find many crimes committed with these guns, they just aren't practical or easy to conceal. They occupy a small niche in the commercial market for gun enthusiasts, small but lucrative. But it looks great as an empty, political ploy to attract sympathy and votes and make it look like something is really being done. When in fact many of these "assault weapons" are collectible investments and rarely if ever fired. And a great many are just plain fun to own and tote and shoot lawfully.

    Look at our criminal justice system today; very little is really being done with regard to firearms law violations. The weapons charges, and their seemingly tough manadatory sentences, are the first thing to be dropped or traded for a plea bargain. We already have laws against violent crimes and murder, and people still do it. And not just with firearms either.

    If we can't enforce the laws we already have, how can more laws help us? It just makes a politician look good, "caring and tough on crime" in the news. When did you hear a politician run for office on a platform of increased taxes for a better criminal justice system, with more judges and more and bigger prisons, with much more money being spent on diagnosis and treatment, psychotherapy etc for sociopathic criminals?

    The weapon of choice for the average criminal is a handgun- someone else's stolen handgun.The government does not like to talk about it much but many illegal firearms are stolen from police and military facilities. The weapon of choice for sport and defense for an honest person is also the handgun. I would like to see gun owners work harder at safeguarding their guns and ammunition, training and safety in handling and shooting.

    If a person is going to carry a gun in society, town etc, especially a big-bore gun loaded with serious anti-personnel ammunition, then that person should have some solid skills in combat shooting. In my experience most of the time they dont, and the public is endangered by these idiots. And they give legitimate gun ownership a bad name every time they screw up.

    It is still a matter of what is in one's mind. And what happened in that hunting situation says nothing about gun ownership except that it is too bad that moron got the drop on that family of hunters and they didnt get a good shot back at him. Who would deny them that right?
     
  11. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

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    I'm sorry! When I read;
    I thought you meant "any other country in the world"! My bad!

    It's a little too simplistic to just say "America is a violent culture" with out looking at where in American society the violence occurs.
     
  12. troutfanatic

    troutfanatic A day not spent wasted is.....wasted.

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    The whole time that I have been comparing violence statistics in the US with other countries, I have not compared us with any other countries except developed countries. I mean in Afghanistan it used to be a social requirement under the taliban for men to carry a weapon. If you did not you were not considered "manly."

    If you don't compare our country with another simaliarily structured country or society, the comparison is worthless.

    Might as well compare fishing a small brook to tarpon fishing.


    Troutfanatic
     
  13. troutfanatic

    troutfanatic A day not spent wasted is.....wasted.

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    Its not about guns, its about how readily we as a society are willing to kill one another...but why not ban handguns? (I know that I'm gonna have about 10 replies screaming about this one). Then nobody has them and nobody worries about anybody else having a concealed weapon. Then everybody can still hunt and have a gun in their homes.

    Handguns are way for people to easily kill one another. With the massive amount of murders that occur each year you would think that the publics safety would come first.

    Right like in China or parts of Japan, where handguns are banned and they have hardly any murders with or without guns.

    People were not nearly as violent as they are now as they were back then. People could accept the huge responsibility of owning a weapon and respect that weapon.


    Why not make people criminally neglegent if they "lose" their handgun? We do the same thing for drunk driving. Ie if your irresponsible or negligent.

    Stolen from military bases???? Have you ever been to a military base? I am sorry but this has to be the most ridiculous comment that I have heard in a long time.

    Yeah lets train some of these nuts to be more effcient at combat shooting and killing.

    Troutfanatic
     
  14. Tom Hawkins

    Tom Hawkins Newbie is fine w/me, I havent been FFing too long

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    Final response (kinda long)

    You can always confuse 'em with facts or baffle 'em with BS
    hers some facts.....
    The "war" on terrorism will be won a lot easier than repealling the 2nd ammendment.
    The war on drugs will be won a lot easier than repealling the 2nd ammendment.
    Speaking of drugs.....what relationship do these numbers have in comparison, as drug/gun related homicides.....?
    You can't get the drugs, you can't get the guns....
    so.... what's your point....
    Hell, we can't even stop poor defenseless schmos from crossing the border with stocking cap, how we gonna get the "big boys".....?
    One guy from ......went "nutzo" with a "Gun".......in Wisc......
    Some kid went "nutzo" with a knife in a school of all places the other day....where's the anti-knife coalition...
    what is your point......?
    You aint gettin' the guns.......might as well drop it, heh?
     
  15. BOBLAWLESS

    BOBLAWLESS New Member

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    When I was about 27, I saw an add in the paper listed by Montgomery Wards and Co. that they had a sale on military police revolvers, cal. 45.
    I ran down and got a new one (never fired) made by Colt and it sold for $27.95. The guy said he had sold thousands and that there were only a few hundred left.

    Can't recall as I signed anything. He asked if I was over 21 and I said yes. No proof was shone. He put it in a paper bag and I left with a big grin on my face because now I owned a "hogleg."

    Ah, those were the days. I never even thought about killing anyone. It was just that now I owned this big hand gun. I loved her for years but she finally got away from me. I parked my car next to U.C.L.A. for the summer, too long and the cops got it before I even found out about the car.

    Bob, the Geez, I would love to still own that gun. The point? There are so many guns, millions maybe billions, out there that it's a little late to be thinking about banning them.