NFR: 58,000 ballots missing in Florida

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by miyawaki, Oct 27, 2004.

  1. Nailknot

    Nailknot Active Member

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    My ballot is in the mail. Does that make me a hero? I voted! My duty is all done! Now I just sit back and bitch! Some stuff for you guys, still won't change your impact on anything or this meaningless debate, but what the hay:

    Your neighbor's political contributions by zip:
    http://www.fundrace.org/neighbors.php

    Videos of all the Iraq beheadings. This will change or affirm your mind about the horror of these people. (WARNING! After watching one of these several weeks ago I felt sick for days, please proceed with caution, seriously- I didn't know they used steak knives- I thought is was a quick machete deal. It is not. It is a long torture and celebration, and will sicken your soul, proceed with caution):
    http://www.ogrish.com/index.htm

    Human Universals:
    http://condor.depaul.edu/~mfiddler/hyphen/humunivers.htm

    Biodiesel fact sheet:
    http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/biodiesel_basics/default.shtm

    Cool fish art:
    http://gallery.fishbc.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=Snapperhead

    If we stop talking and being lazy and cheap and fat and complaining and start DOING we can make this country great again. This is a land of opportunity, for real, but if you seek no opportunity, you will get what others dictate to you. Let's go get it!
     
  2. Steve Buckner

    Steve Buckner Mother Nature's Son

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    Cactus,
    It puzzles me why you still don't get the fact that there is no connection??? There are no WMD's, never were...We haven't found any labs, we haven't found any evidence after having U.S forces there for 18 months...but if it makes you sleep better to just trust the government, believe away! The CIA has admitted that the intelligence it had was faulty.

    here is a link to the program that aired on NPR:

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4120645
    Talk of the Nation, October 21, 2004 · A new study by the Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA) shows that a significant number of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. We speak with PIPA's director.

    So, the poll is correct, those Bush supporters refuse to listen to the evidence presented by the 911 Commision or the Charles Dulfur report.

    When did people start trusting the government? I thought that faded away after vietnam???

    So despite your earlier assumptions about being informed, I'm afraid your still uninformed.

    And if taking an hour of your time doesn't work to listen to the link above will take to long, here is the story from PIPA (http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_Election_04/html/new_10_21_04.html)


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Bush Supporters Still Believe Iraq Had WMD or Major Program,
    Supported al Qaeda

    Agree with Kerry Supporters Bush Administration Still Saying This is the Case
    Agree US Should Not Have Gone to War if No WMD or Support for al Qaeda

    Bush Supporters Misperceive World Public as Not Opposed to Iraq War,
    Favoring Bush Reelection


    Even after the final report of Charles Duelfer to Congress saying that Iraq did not have a significant WMD program, 72% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq had actual WMD (47%) or a major program for developing them (25%). Fifty-six percent assume that most experts believe Iraq had actual WMD and 57% also assume, incorrectly, that Duelfer concluded Iraq had at least a major WMD program. Kerry supporters hold opposite beliefs on all these points.

    Similarly, 75% of Bush supporters continue to believe that Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda, and 63% believe that clear evidence of this support has been found. Sixty percent of Bush supporters assume that this is also the conclusion of most experts, and 55% assume, incorrectly, that this was the conclusion of the 9/11 Commission. Here again, large majorities of Kerry supporters have exactly opposite perceptions.

    These are some of the findings of a new study of the differing perceptions of Bush and Kerry supporters, conducted by the Program on International Policy Attitudes and Knowledge Networks, based on polls conducted in September and October.

    Steven Kull, director of PIPA, comments, "One of the reasons that Bush supporters have these beliefs is that they perceive the Bush administration confirming them. Interestingly, this is one point on which Bush and Kerry supporters agree." Eighty-two percent of Bush supporters perceive the Bush administration as saying that Iraq had WMD (63%) or that Iraq had a major WMD program (19%). Likewise, 75% say that the Bush administration is saying Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda. Equally large majorities of Kerry supporters hear the Bush administration expressing these views--73% say the Bush administration is saying Iraq had WMD (11% a major program) and 74% that Iraq was substantially supporting al Qaeda.

    Steven Kull adds, "Another reason that Bush supporters may hold to these beliefs is that they have not accepted the idea that it does not matter whether Iraq had WMD or supported al Qaeda. Here too they are in agreement with Kerry supporters." Asked whether the US should have gone to war with Iraq if US intelligence had concluded that Iraq was not making WMD or providing support to al Qaeda, 58% of Bush supporters said the US should not have, and 61% assume that in this case the President would not have. Kull continues, "To support the president and to accept that he took the US to war based on mistaken assumptions likely creates substantial cognitive dissonance, and leads Bush supporters to suppress awareness of unsettling information about prewar Iraq."

    << RESUME READING >>

    This tendency of Bush supporters to ignore dissonant information extends to other realms as well. Despite an abundance of evidence--including polls conducted by Gallup International in 38 countries, and more recently by a consortium of leading newspapers in 10 major countries--only 31% of Bush supporters recognize that the majority of people in the world oppose the US having gone to war with Iraq. Forty-two percent assume that views are evenly divided, and 26% assume that the majority approves. Among Kerry supporters, 74% assume that the majority of the world is opposed.

    Similarly, 57% of Bush supporters assume that the majority of people in the world would favor Bush's reelection; 33% assumed that views are evenly divided and only 9% assumed that Kerry would be preferred. A recent poll by GlobeScan and PIPA of 35 of the major countries around the world found that in 30, a majority or plurality favored Kerry, while in just 3 Bush was favored. On average, Kerry was preferred more than two to one.

    Bush supporters also have numerous misperceptions about Bush's international policy positions. Majorities incorrectly assume that Bush supports multilateral approaches to various international issues--the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (69%), the treaty banning land mines (72%)--and for addressing the problem of global warming: 51% incorrectly assume he favors US participation in the Kyoto treaty. After he denounced the International Criminal Court in the debates, the perception that he favored it dropped from 66%, but still 53% continue to believe that he favors it. An overwhelming 74% incorrectly assumes that he favors including labor and environmental standards in trade agreements. In all these cases, majorities of Bush supporters favor the positions they impute to Bush. Kerry supporters are much more accurate in their perceptions of his positions on these issues.

    "The roots of the Bush supporters' resistance to information," according to Steven Kull, "very likely lie in the traumatic experience of 9/11 and equally in the near pitch-perfect leadership that President Bush showed in its immediate wake. This appears to have created a powerful bond between Bush and his supporters--and an idealized image of the President that makes it difficult for his supporters to imagine that he could have made incorrect judgments before the war, that world public opinion could be critical of his policies or that the President could hold foreign policy positions that are at odds with his supporters."

    The polls were conducted October 12-18 and September 3-7 and 8-12 with samples of 968, 798 and 959 respondents, respectively. Margins of error were 3.2 to 4% in the first and third surveys and 3.5% on September 3-7. The poll was fielded by Knowledge Networks using its nationwide panel, which is randomly selected from the entire adult population and subsequently provided internet access. For more information about this methodology, go to www.knowledgenetworks.com/ganp.


    Funding for this research was provided by the Rockefeller Brothers Fund.

    For more information on the PIPA poll see:
    Report of Findings
    Questionnaire
    Press Release
     
  3. Nailknot

    Nailknot Active Member

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    What puzzles me is none of you see your own connection. Sad. As Dr Phil (you must know him, as you seem to be media whores) says- time to get real! Time to walk the talk. Who are you fighting with this shit? Does it matter? Fighting about details of the symptoms and refusing to take accountability for the cause? Shut The f*ck up, stop debating shit you have no control over and do something about it. What have you done today? Arguing details of some reports? You guys are suckers. Create your own reality, like all great Americans have done, and stop waiting for others to do for you.
     
  4. Kalm

    Kalm Member

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  5. Steve Buckner

    Steve Buckner Mother Nature's Son

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    Nailknot,

    What connection are you referring to?
     
  6. Nailknot

    Nailknot Active Member

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    SB: Your use of petro oil. Your money funding the Saudis that supported Osama. That connection. Right now, you can choose to give the terrorists and big oil interests more of your money, and continue to support business as usual, or you can choose not to. It's up to you. There is a vialble alternative now.
     
  7. Steve Buckner

    Steve Buckner Mother Nature's Son

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    Nailknot I don't disagree with that...

    The sad truth is that as U.S. citizens, we make up 25% of the world's population, yet we consume 90% of its resources.

    Back when I was graduating with a degree in physics from college, there had already been much research done on switching combustion engines over to hydrogen, and sadly that technology has been put on the backburner. I suspect that it will prevail some day.

    Can you imagine a source of free, clean, renewable energy? How could the government control us then?
     
  8. Nailknot

    Nailknot Active Member

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    Steve, Hydrogen is a pipe dream for now. It doesn't add up. Extraction and containment costs are prohibitive. Energy units per output compared to biofuels at this point are a joke- something like 2000/hydrogen units compared to 120 for biofuels for the same distance traveled. USA made biofuels are ready for prime time now, you can run a diesel vehicle on biodiesel or flex fuel car on E85 (85% ethenol)- TODAY. Work locally and demand a pump- if people want it, you bet the USA spirit of entrepreneurship will make it happen. But don't believe the hype.

    A hydrogen vehicle with hydrogen made from petroleum (there is no other energy source to extract hydrogen at this time -other than- dare I say, biofuels) should result in roughly no change, or potentially an increase in greenhouse emissions (can cite plenty of studies that back this up if anyone wants). In comparable vehicles, a hydrogen drivetrain gives at best marginally better efficiency than current gasoline drivetrains (for example, Ford's hydrogen Focus, despite using very expensive ultra-lightweight materials in place of the materials used in a normal Focus, gets 45 miles per gasoline-gallon-equivalent of hydrogen (roughly 1 kg) - only marginally better than a gasoline Focus without all the additional lightweight materials). Reforming the gasoline to get hydrogen results in additional energy input, which decreases the overall efficiency - end result has to be at least the same or more greenhouse emissions than the vehicle with a gasoline drivetrain would get. Zero sum at higher cost.

    Hydrogen fuel cells don't work for transportation, and that is the reality. Its another red herring by the USA auto industry- who have yet to bring any solutions to the table despite 30 years of "research." In fact our avg per vehicle consumption just goes up every year! And they fight every attempt to make the USA energy independent. They value stock price over our future. Big oil and Detroit auto are anti-American, pro middle east. Look at the facts. They are killing us. They *need* this Iraq war. And with or without 9/11 it would have happened. The planning was in place before 9/11 occured.

    Time to wake up- big oil and USA auto have nothing to gain from green, sustainable, or USA grown fuel. They have deep investments in the current dead-end Saudi relationships. What public company would support something that subverts and potentially dominates their investments and positions? None of them. They are lying to us and manipulating us. We can live, with great success and prosperity, without them. Their time has come and gone, they made bad bets, but only us the consumers will prove that out. If you choose to run saudi gas over available biodiesel, you bear the moral burden of dead soldiers, greenhouse gasses and oil spills, future terrorist attacks, supporting king Saud over American farmers. And god bless the USA, you are free to make that decision. And I'm free to tell you to f*ck off for your anti-American, pro-middle east, choice.

    Learn more about biodiesel here: http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/biodiesel_basics/default.shtm
     
  9. Steve Buckner

    Steve Buckner Mother Nature's Son

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    Nailknot,
    It is not anti-american to disagree with the Bush adminstration about their decision to invade another country, in fact, disagreeing with the ruling government of the time is what brought this country into existence. Having an opportunity to disagree with any political decision is the foundation of this country, despite your attempts to argue against that right. Apparently Bush has also pursuaded you to believe such nonsense. You argue that you're opposed to being dependent upon middle-eastern oil, but in the same breath, defend the U.S. position there. Now that's Ironic!!! If this is a cause that you believe so stronly in, I see no other course than for you than to enlist!!!

    It is anti-american to invade another country for capitalistic purposes, and it is anti-american to invent the reasons necessary to justify that end, that is, the american ideals that I was raised to believe in. Maybe things have changed for your generation. Killing innocent people, no matter which country they're from is also anti-american. God should not just "bless this country", but now that you've brought God into the picture, the traits of greed, killing, etc. is also incongruent with Christianity as well other religions. I don't believe you've made the case that you're a holy man.

    It is also not that I don't support those troops that are in Iraq. It is entirely possible to support those who have been sent and who have lost their lives without agreeing with the decision to send them there. I believe their lives are more important than for the U.S. to have cheap oil. This war is not on par with WWII, it is a war of greed.

    As much as biodiesel may be an alternative to petroleum based products, it seems to also be a pipedream. It is not readily available. I'd be surprised if it made up more than a percent or two of even this nation's consumption of fuel. So the throne that you've put yourself upon is made of plastic, made from petroleum based products. Unless you're secretly Amish and living on a farm somewhere, your food, your clothing, and everything you consume as an american, is being brought to you by petroleum burning engines. You are no less dependent upon middle-eastern oil than anyone else in this country. That is the sad reality that you'll have to face, despite your self-righteous attitude.

    One of the Hallmarks of this site is the ability to discuss issues of a great variety and to debate them respectfully. Debating any issue can bring out many emotions. Ufortunately, when you tell me to just "f*ck off" because you disagree, you lose credibility, but based upon your responses, maybe you never had any to lose.
     
  10. Stellablue

    Stellablue Salvenius Secretariat

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    How 'bout dem Huskies ???? :beer2:
     
  11. BOBLAWLESS

    BOBLAWLESS New Member

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    Stevie Wonder

    Gosh Steve, you make a ton of sense when you write about fishing and maybe eve more so when the world of politics grabs your pen, I am a big admirerer. We gotta have some coffee some day or a good big blast of Democratic bourbon (Republicans will only drink scotch, you know).

    Bob, the Kudos for your prose, my good friend. iagree
     
  12. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

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    Yes I was aware of that. I posted it to show conclusions of the Commission in a simplified form. However if you would like information:

    "I don't think there's any doubt but that there were some contacts between Saddam Hussein's government and al-Qaeda, Osama Bin Laden's people." (9-11 Commission Vice Chairman Lee Hamilton, News Hour with Jim Lehrer, June 16, 2004)’

    "Yes, there were contacts between Iraqi and al-Qaeda, a number of them, some of them a little shadowy. They were definitely there." (9-11 Commission Chairman Thomas Kean, News Hour with Jim Lehrer, June 16, 2004)

    "Bin Ladin also explored possible cooperation with Iraq during his time in Sudan, despite his opposition to Hussein's secular regime... A senior Iraqi intelligence officer reportedly made three visits to Sudan, finally meeting Bin Ladin in 1994." (9-11 Commission Staff Statement 15, June 16, 2004)

    "Bin Ladin is said to have requested space to establish training camps, as well as assistance in procuring weapons, but Iraq apparently never responded. There have been reports that contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda also occurred after Bin Ladin had returned to Afghanistan, but they do not appear to have resulted in a collaborative relationship." (9-11 Commission Staff Statement 15, June 16, 2004)

    I granted that there is no evidence of a collaborative relationship, but there were links!

    You know what, if that was all there was I would agree! However, along with those links, with Saddam Hussain's connections to other terrorist groups such as Hamas, the belief by the entire world that he had WMD, his violation of 17 UN sanctions and the now obvious fact that we are not necessarily secure within our borders from attack, I think that it WAS enough reason to support war.
     
  13. Cactus

    Cactus Dana Miller

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    And it puzzles ME that you don't get the fact that there was! See my previous post to Kalm's questions.

    Now as for WMD, Saddam did have them at ONE time. He used them against Iran and against the Kurds. He led the entire world to believe that he still had them and the entire world, including John Kerry, thought he did.

    Nowhere have I said that he still had them at the time of our invasion, it is obvious that he did NOT. However, no one can know with any certainty that he never had them 1 year prior to our invasion. He may have had them and either destroyed or moved them prior to our invasion. Or, he may not have had them and just let the world keep on believing he did in the hope that the UN (who he was bribeing) would prevent an invasion.
     
  14. Steve Buckner

    Steve Buckner Mother Nature's Son

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    At the time that Saddam used WMD's on the Kurds, the U.S. was supporting Iraq, we just managed to turn a blind eye at the time. It would be in Saddam's best interest for the world to believe that he had WMD's, this was the only thing hindering the US from invading earlier. In addition to having UNSCOM inspectors in Iraq for the vast majority of the time between the first Iraq war and the second, the U.S. took every conceivable means to spy and gather intelligence. The CIA now acknowledges that it's information was faulty.

    We haven't managed to invade Korea yet, the real threat of them using an atomic weapon has detered our interest there. North Korea also lacks the huge resevoirs of oil that Iraq does.

    "The roots of the Bush supporters' resistance to information," according to Steven Kull, "very likely lie in the traumatic experience of 9/11 and equally in the near pitch-perfect leadership that President Bush showed in its immediate wake. This appears to have created a powerful bond between Bush and his supporters--and an idealized image of the President that makes it difficult for his supporters to imagine that he could have made incorrect judgments before the war, that world public opinion could be critical of his policies or that the President could hold foreign policy positions that are at odds with his supporters."
     
  15. Steve Buckner

    Steve Buckner Mother Nature's Son

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    Thanks Bob!!! :thumb: