NFR: HB3359 seeks to serialize handgun ammo

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Roper, Feb 13, 2008.

  1. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

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    Like I said, already been debated ad nauseum. I won't bore you or myself with re-hashing the issue. But, if you're interested in constitutional history and semantics.....by all means, carry on!:rolleyes:

    JonB
     
  2. Old Man

    Old Man Just an Old Man

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    Since I'm on the lazy side and don't want to read the whole bill. What are they going to mark the lead or the casing.

    Most pick up the brass and the lead would be so misformed after going thru a body that you couldn't read the numbers if you wanted to.

    Don't pay me no never mind as I'm just babbling on about what I know nothing about.

    Jim
     
  3. Chris Puma

    Chris Puma hates waking up early

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    changed my quote before anyone else replied quoting it. i didn't change my quote after people replied. as long as you quote it before i change it, you can still respond with my original quote.

    i didn't go back after people started quoting to change my original quote so i wouldn't get flack. i thought what i posted sounded crazy. big deal. you called me a spineless pussy. congragulations.

    i royally f*cked up that sentence you quoted me on. i also pmed you about it.
     
  4. PT

    PT Physhicist

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    Chris, no big deal. You don't seem fanatical to me. Hell, I crap leather and laces with the amount of shoe I eat on this site.:clown:
     
  5. Ryan Nathe

    Ryan Nathe Member

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    Nevermind
     
  6. o mykiss

    o mykiss Active Member

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    Actually, Jon, maybe you should brush up on your history. Every time the Supreme Court has weighed in on the issue, beginning in the late 1800s and I think most recently in the late 1970s, they've made clear the second amendment is an issue of states' rights, not individual rights. Now, that may change when they finally hand down their opinion on Parker v. D.C., which was heard last fall. But for now, the Supreme Court has never ruled it's an individual right.
     
  7. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

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    OMJ, I didn't read the entire bill either. I've heard "both casing and projectile" from some and "only casing" from others. It doesn't really matter though as both would be equally useless in preventing or solving crimes. The bill, if it ever got enacted, would actually create a black market for unmarked ammunition so it would cause more crime than it prevented.
    Just another hairbrained scheme from the Brady Bunch.:rolleyes:

    JonB
     
  8. Dick Warnke

    Dick Warnke was Pram-Man

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    Thanks for the heads up Roper, hopefully this is a dead issue for now. And for those of you who can't see things like this as another attempt by the Brady Bunch and other anti gun fanatics to put yet another "chink in the armor" of responsible gun ownership. Just keep your heads buried in the sand. At least I know what side of the line I stand on, and I'm proud to see and say I'm not alone over here. :thumb:
     
  9. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

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    I will concede that I was over-reaching when I stated that the "Supreme Court has sided with those who believe that firearms ownership is an INDIVIDUAL RIGHT."
    Let's look at what the Supremos have actually said:

    From US vs. Cruickshank (1876):
    Apparently you interpret this to mean that the RKBA CAN be infringed by other govt. entities? I would say that this means that the RIGHT exists independant of govt. and the 2nd ammendment is there to prevent Congress from infringing.

    I think this is the most salient passage from this portion of the opinion:
    At any rate, I stand corrected as to the SCOTUS ruling on the individual right issue. In my eyes the SCOTUS has acknowledged that the right exists independant of any govt. body as it was, like other freedoms, pre-existing and granted by our creator.

    In Presser vs. People of Illinois (1886):

    In U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez (1990):

    In this case the SCOTUS takes a stab at clarifying the meaning of "the People"
    We live in interesting times. It may well be a defining moment in our history when the court hands down the DC decision.
    Keep your powder dry boys!

    JonB
     
  10. Jim Wallace

    Jim Wallace Smells like low tide.

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    Whew! For a moment there, having mis-read Roper's initial post, I was afeared that they were gonna take away my right to arm and keep bears! :clown:
    Then, realizing my mistake, i again misread it and thought they were gonna try to take away my right arm that hoists beers!:beer1:

    Seriously folks, it wouldn't even take 2 seconds for a black market to develop in ammo. There would be van loads coming in daily from out of state, completely under the radar. This was one of the stupidist pieces of proposed legislation that i have ever heard... a complete and idiotic waste of tax dollars, and have absolutely zero effect on preventing criminals from obtaining ammo.
    Glad to hear it died in committee!
     
  11. Josh

    Josh dead in the water

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    So would it be equally stupid if it were a national law? Despite my earlier ribbing of Roper, I'm asking a serious question here.

    I have no idea if an honest working law enforcement agent would say "hell no, this wouldn't help us at all" or "Yes, this would be a great piece of information in our arsenal". I know all I'm likely to get by asking this question is hot-air propaganda from both sides of the line. But that's how you learn, by asking.

    I tend to try and gather as much information on a subject as I can before I make up my mind one way or the other.
     
  12. alpinetrout

    alpinetrout Banned or Parked

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    It might make it worthwhile enough for domestic ammunition manufacturers to retool to be able to do the etching. It would most certainly drive up the prices as well. As for foreign manufacturers, who knows how many would go through the trouble. At any rate, there would still be billions of rounds produced around the world every year without any serial numbers that would most certainly make their way into the US one way or another. Look at the amount of drugs that make it into this country. Smuggling serial-free ammo wouldn't have nearly the monetary loss (both actual and future) to smugglers when caught and confiscated, pound for pound, as cocaine or heroin.

    Let's also not ignore the issue of theft. Once stolen without serial numbers being recorded at the dealer, the system is worthless. Even worse, if it were stolen from an end user without their knowledge and was subsequently used in a crime, an innocent victim could be linked to a crime they had nothing to do with. Along those same lines, it would be easy for a black market to develop around ammunition reported as lost or stolen by criminals who then resell the ammunition as part of a larger black market network.

    Meanwhile, there's still the the fact that ammunition is very low tech and reloading is very easy for most anyone to do. An etched number could easily be removed from a spent casing and reloaded with a serial-free bullet. At that point, the only way to tell if the round was "legal" or not would be to either fire it or dismantle it. There is no possible way to effectively enforce this system, which basically renders it an incredibly expensive bureaucratic waste of resources.
     
  13. Adam Taylor

    Adam Taylor Member

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    If it solves even 1 murder or deters even 1 criminal is that not worth it?
     
  14. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

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    OK, fair enough, here's my hot air propoganda.:)
    I know exactly what an "honest working law enforcement agent " would say because I have one in the family and I asked him.
    He said it was absolutely ridiculous, stating all the reasons that were given by alpine and others earlier in this thread.
    I would ask you to think about how govt. spends so much of OUR resources trying to correct problems that were initiated by govt.
    Now imagine that the serialized ammo law was passed and then a large black market for unmarked ammo developed. This then prompts govt. to enact a ban on posession of unmarked ammo.
    Now any collector who has old ammo is a criminal.
    Any hunter, shooter, reloader who has unmarked ammo is a criminal.
    Any 77 year old granny who has an old box of 30.06 that grandad left in his sock drawer is a criminal.
    Now, what do we do about muzzleloaders?
    What do we do about shotguns?
    As a person who has watched the erosion of the 2nd ammendment for decades I can tell you that the gun ban lobby works incrementaly with "common sense solutions" that always appear, on the surface, to be aimed at protecting the public. This kind of legislation is just that. It appears to be for public safety but, it's really about driving one more nail in the coffin of the RKBA.

    ctyazfan, the answer to your question is NO.

    JonB
     
  15. David Prutsman

    David Prutsman All men are equal before fish

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    Exactly! Why bother with legislation which will have no impact on law abiding gun owners? If somone is going to rob a seven 11, I doubt they are concerned enough about gun laws to first register the ammunition. Legistaion such as this just tippy toes closer and closer to "that" line and if a stand is not made and a line not clearly drawn, precedent upon precedent will be set eventually leading to the amputation of our rights. Today it's coding ammunition, tomorrow it will be the sale of firearms with out a firing pin, c'mon now!

    I'm not apposed to gun legislation but some common sense is in order. I would much rather see legislation regarding firearm education. Perhaps, like other states, Washington should require proof of a safety course before a concealed lisence is issued. Who can argue with education and safety?

    David