Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Go Fish, Dec 14, 2012.
the guys with the guns will win...how can it work out any other way?
Lets not have this thread devolve into useless bullshit. The topic deserves better. Start a conversation if you feel the need to sling crap.
I don't disagree, but you better believe some change is coming. Why not let it be something that makes some sense like making it a tougher process to get a gun?
As for the price, I agree there too which is why I said there should NOT be a special fee to go along with said guns. I agree with a more strict application process (for any gun), but not fees for the privilege to own them.
If the process to legally purchase and possess guns gets too restrictive there will be an increase in illegal arms out there. These "new criminals" would be easier to find and prosecute and the current criminal element would only enjoy enhanced invisibility. Just my thought. I'd rather see some effort turned up to get illegal weapons away from criminals. They don't care about law violations. They don't seem to value life.
At time of writing this 1/8/13, here's a list of gun deaths since Newton 12/14/12: 7 kids, 27 teens, 609 adults
"Charles Manson and his gang didn't have one gun among them. They killed alot of people. They are living better than ever on our dime." If you really believe living in that concrete and steel cell is "better than ever" you're dumber than a box of rocks.
Multiply that times five and you will have the approximate tally for those killed in automobile accidents. Yet nobody wants to ban/restrict those 505 hp Corvettes with top speeds in excess of 190mph despite posted speed limits nationwide. I think we can live with cars whose top speed is limited to 80mph and horsepower to weight ratio closer to that found in your average pick-up truck.
If the point here is to save lives, banning or restricting the sale of high capacity magazines, auto-loading rifles and carbines won't do it. Period. More gun related deaths are from low-cost handguns that carry less than 20rnds of ammunition than any other platform. However there is that nasty little Bill of Rights getting in the way of banning or restricting the sale or ownership either weapon system.
We need to examine America's propensity towards violent and sociopathic crimes rather than trying to eliminate the tools employed. Ever wonder how all those 18-22 year old kids with military grade magazine and belt fed weapons manage not to kill each other off downrange despite the wide availability of arms and ammunition? I mean hell the in-service murder rate overseas is almost 1/1000th the national average, but surely with so many kids with such varied backgrounds should be killing each other off left & right because everyone has at the minimum, an M4 and a 30rnd mag. At least, according to Sen Feinstein's logic that should be happening, but it isn't.
We don't live in utopia, there are evil people in this world who want to do evil things and will do so in any fashion that is feasible. Criminalizing the millions of responsible owners of military style weapons is the wrong answer. It won't save lives, it won't make us safer, and won't make us better as a country. No society that reaches a population density or size similar to ours is EVER exempt from violent crime. So how can we, as a people, prevent such tragedies from occuring?
MY answers are those that people don't want to listen to, because it will take time and take a lot of work from each of us. It wouldn't be easy, and wouldn't happen overnight.
1. Allow ALL local, state, and federally employed workers to carry concealed on the job. HOWEVER, those that do carry must past a competency exam annually or quarterly which would involve; marksmanship, evacuation procedures, first aid, crime scene sanitization protocol, citizen's arrest protocol, and handling of prisoners. This condition is regardless of holding a CCW, but if they do not hold a CCW they cannot cary concealed in their "off" time.
2. Require ALL police department's whose city/county population is at or in excess of 5,000 be required to have plans implemented for MASSCAL and active shooter response to any location which would have no less than 50 people at any given time of day. Annual drills, and state/federal review of these plans would be required in order for that department to continue receiving state or federal funding.
3. Enable CCW carriers to be deputized as public safety officers. These deputies would have jurisdiction statewide and be required to pass the same competency exams as Government employees. This deputization would enable these citizens to open carry, but have to participate in the MASSCAL and active shooter response drills with their local, county or state PD once every 3 years in order to renew their deputization.
If ANY of these conditions had been met in the states where mass shootings were involved I do believe these shootings would have been prevented. The total cost to do this would be very very small, but require a great number of man/woman-hours to train for these scenarios and test the capabilities of PSOs and PDs. But I honestly think this would be the best solution for ourselves, and our children.
I'm not saying it should get super restrictive, but right now I can walk in to a store, show an ID, and walk out with a rifle/shotgun in under 30 minutes. Seems maybe a bit too easy. I haven't thought through all the details, but I like the idea of being licensed to own guns. Just like a drivers license you have to take a series of tests (background check, gun safety, compentancy test, etc) and end up with a "gun owners license". Once you have that you can go down to any place that sell guns and ammo and buy whatever you want with no wait.
I don't believe this will stop most mass shootings as they usually steal legal guns from family, but there are plenty in the past that went down and bought a weapon prior to a shooting. This system would help with that, but more importantly I think it would make a more responsible owner/user group overall. I also agree that laws only apply to law abiding citizens, and criminals don't follow the law (by definition). However, most of the young messed up people that do these crimes aren't tapped in to the black market gun trade and almost always use a "legal" gun whether it's their own or a family members.
The root cause solutions and everything else have been discussed previously in this thread so no need to go back in to those.
An interesting video. Regaurdless of your politics, this is the type of annalysis congress should be doing rather than making knee jerk policy with no reasoning.
I wasn't going to come back to this post but I have to say it one more time. Laws do nothing to prevent crime, only punish after the fact. (that is if you don't have a failed judicial system that lets repeat offenders back on the street.) When you need a cop now they're always 10 to 15 minutes away and can't do anything after the deed is done to make it right.
History must have passed many of you by in school. If you can't see where this country is headed, your head is firmly in the sand. This administration is just the tip of the iceberg. It's as open and transparent as a brick wall. More whistleblowers have been prosecuted under a WW1 statute than by all previous administrations. It's OK to rat on a company, but not the White House. Say the wrong thing and you'll get arrested and jailed with no reason and no hurry to process the case. Don't worry about that drone over your neighborhood, it's not armed...yet. BTW, the drones in Afghanistan are still killing civilians, but that OK it's collateral damage. Those kids are as dead as the ones in Sandy Hook.
It's all about control, and we have a fine collection of sheep these days. Give them their smart phones, TV reality shows, GMO processed foods, some booze, a football game or other sport and they're happy. Honey Boo-boo is happy...and Kim has great ta-ta's. Lets not forget Halo4 for the 8 year olds to play. We're up to our necks in $hit and can't smell it. But thank goodness the LGBT community is taken care of and a little weed never hurt anyone. Keep 'em stoned, they won't know any better. Last but not least it's great that the atheists can put up bill boards saying God is dead and Merry Winter.
Out of curiosity, what will the sheep do when the real shit hits the fan? Wish they had a gun, or just shit their diapers?
Every day I hope I'm wrong, that I've read the tea leaves incorrectly, but the next day there's more proof I'm not wrong.
You're living a pipe dream if you think these gun laws will be anything less than the first step to disarm law abiding Americans. Pleasant dreams...
Manson & crew were hippies. A bunch of homeless, unemployed bums scrounging for anything they could get their hands on to survive. They now have a roof over their heads, 3 squares a day & access to a lot of amenities they never had before. So yeah, better than "they" ever had it before.
Dartmonkey: At least you are able to see beyond all the smoke & mirrors, stare reality in the face, and come up with some solutions other than more gun restrictions. Hats off to you for that. As long as the solutions are worded as enable, allow and volunteer, rather than require, demand, and add to the deficit, I'm willing to listen.
You're living a pipe dream (or nightmare?) if you think the gays, pot smokers and atheists are to blame for the majority of society's ills. Myself, and other atheists on this board, aren't the ones erecting the inflammatory billboards you mention. Just like you, I suspect, won't be out there bombing abortion clinics this weekend.
I was with you 100% on the drones, reality TV, smart phones, Honey Boo Boo bullsh-t until you veered down Glenn Beck Blvd. The only thing you succeeded at was perpetuating another stereotype.
You left out a small detail; the form 4473 that a purchaser needs to complete for the federal background check that's required when buying from any federal firearms licensee.
Slider, funny thing about stereotypes, they're based on repetitious behaviors by a group. Sorry if your atheist beliefs had you lumped into some stereotype, it wasn't my intent. My intent is to depict the trivial matters that seem so important to our society. I could care less what your belief in God is or isn't. I could care less if folks want to smoke pot, I smoked my fair share, hash too, and lot's of other drugs. It's not important any more. I don't care if you want to marry and have sex with the same sex or goats for that matter. Keep it to your self. I don't see any heterosexual parades, do you. This shit just isn't important. Neither is Glenn Beck...
What is important is caring for each other and the planet.
How does that statement make the jump to guns? While utopia makes for good fiction, it doesn't exist. There's bad guys and girls out there. That's a fact. The shit will hit the fan here in America, maybe in my lifetime, maybe not. If it does, I'm gonna protect me and mine from the bad guys. It's my right!
This weekend I will be on a killing spree, quail, pheasants, maybe ducks...and a chili burger. What stereotype would that be...?
Some of you who are still wet behind the ears, need to realize is that us old guys did indeed grow up in a different world. Before the atheists got prayer banned from school, nativity scenes were proudly displayed everywhere and no one bitched about it, Charlie Brown Christmas plays were a given at every school, and every little girl wanted to play the virgin Mary. They were Christmas trees, not holiday trees, and everyone wished you a Merry Christmas and a happy New Year. None of this happy holiday BS! in addition to that, we recited the pledge of allegiance to the American flag (which was in every class room) including "one nation under God" at the start of every day! We learned and sang a lot of traditional songs from the school songbook. There were no abortion clinics. If an unwed girl got pregnant, she dropped out of school, had the baby, and got on with her life the best she could. The only people who smoked pot or did drugs of any kind were musicians. There was no such thing as political correctness. A spade was a spade period. Nothing inflammatory about calling it like it was. I walked in a hardware store when I was fourteen and almost bought a brand new Marlin 30-30 lever action rifle. (with paper route money) Only thing that kept me from going back for it was my Dad clued me in on the cost of 30-30 ammo compared to .22. There were no permits to fill out. Nor were there any mass murders going on. The most popular TV shows for kids was Ozzie & Harriot and Leave to Beaver. There was no X rated stuff on TV at all.
The nightmare is what the liberal progressives have created today. Where if one dares to criticize anything that displeases them, they are accused of "playing the race card" of being a bigot, or a far right nut cake. Glenn Beck would have been considered just an every day middle of the road guy back in the fifties. He could not have made a living doing what he does today because he was no different than the guy next door. Then there were the Democrats. Hell, the Democrats of the fifties would be considered right wingers by today's standards.
Of course today the in crowd, those who don't know any better, who think they own the world, just want to write us old guys off as old fashioned, clinging to memories of the past. Well I've got news for you. Not so fast pilgrim. I plan on pumping air for another twenty years or so. I want my world back! And I'll fight you every step of the way for it.