(NFR) You won't believe this......

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by Jason Baker, Oct 22, 2006.

  1. Snake

    Snake tryin' not to get too comfortable

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    You won't believe this......

    Hmmmm. 100,000 Iraqis dead, including women and children, and over 1,000 Americans dead and thousands more seriously wounded......

    Good thing we're holding back, or our world-wide reputation for "humanity and restraint" would skyrocket!:rolleyes:
     
  2. Split Bamboo

    Split Bamboo Member

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    You won't believe this......

    Hmmmm, welcome to the debate. But your arguments would have more credibility if you can demonstrate that you are well informed. Unfortunately, there have been over 2700 US military deaths. How many of the Iraq deaths were caused by the US? The "insurgents" as they are incorrectly called, are blowing up innocent women and children on a regular basis. Not our military. Yes, there have been isolated examples of abuse by our troops, but they have been far outweighed by examples of restraint, but those are rarely reported. Has the US bombed the wrong place, or unintentionally killed innocents? Of course, this is a war, but compared to any other conflict, these casualties are very low. Check the facts.

    You have every right to disagree with my opinions, but you should base your arguments on facts rather than emotion.

    Andrew
     
  3. Flyborg

    Flyborg Active Member

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    You won't believe this......

    Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law
    Main Entry: cen·sor
    Function: transitive verb
    : to examine (as a publication or film) in order to suppress or delete any contents considered objectionable

    The clip was censored--it says so right in the article you linked to. "CNN fades the screen to black before the result — described as a victim falling forward — is visible." Whether or not the right amount of censorship was applied is the issue.

    You need to use the closing quote tag:
    Code:
    [/quote]
     
  4. Split Bamboo

    Split Bamboo Member

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    Flyborg,

    Good point, but wouldn't you agree that when the term censored is used today, it implies some sort of goverment intervention, not editorial decisions?

    Words and their meanings have a way of changing over the years. How about a fishing report from 50 years ago: "Fishing was great, we all caught many fish. As we walked back to the cabin we were quite happy and gay. Then we relaxed, had a few beers and smoked some fags.":rofl:


    Andrew

    "Not that there is anything wrong with that" - J. Seinfield
     
  5. RockyMtnC&R

    RockyMtnC&R Banned or Parked

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    I see there are a lot of Bushees alive and well in WA. So much for the liberal stereotypes. Time to make friends fast, lol.

    Anyway,

    Jason-
    How can you see my soap box from all the way up there in that ivory tower of yours? It's tough to debate with somebody when they keep bending and twisting my words and using completely unrelated comparisons. We all appear to be educated adults. Save the analogies, use your words. Inside voice please, lol.

    Chadk-
    Of course it's political. But it's politically significant. As you mention, we are approaching an election. Not just any election, a war time election. During a war time election, the key issue voters should be focused on is the war in question.

    Bamboo-
    So, how many deaths of Iraqi civilians WERE caused by the US? Please show me that you are well informed. Just kidding, you could never retrieve a statistic like that. There is no way the US government would release the real number. If it is not obvious to you that more Iraqi civilians have died as a result of collateral damage from US bombings than the insurgent efforts, I question where you get your news. Fox or...fox?
     
  6. RockyMtnC&R

    RockyMtnC&R Banned or Parked

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    Ok, lets break em down shall we? to /examine/as/a/ publication/ or/ film/ in/ order/ to/ suppress/ or/ delete/ any/ contents/ considered/ objectionable/

    I dont think that any of the words used in his supplied definition would be considered as having changed over the years.

    Ahhh, debating politics with values based voters. Often trying, always humorous...next?
     
  7. Snake

    Snake tryin' not to get too comfortable

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    You won't believe this......

    Thanks. I've always enjoyed a spirited intelligent debate.
    So it's actually worse than I implied?? In that case, I truly am sorry and saddened. What a waste. But I did say "over 1,000", so technically I wasn't incorrect.
    Actually, I do agree that graphic depictions of violence and war have no place in the mass media, but the current generation of teens is probably so numb to that sort of thing I doubt if anything would really shock them (except actually being in a war, and seeing first-hand brutality that isn't "hollywood-ized"). It's pretty rare to meet a soldier who has seen war who isn't against it.
    Yeah, the idea of innocent women and kids being killed (or "collateral damage", if you insist on sanitizing and justifying the idea) in an unneccesary (IMHO) war kind of gets me riled up, and I don't apologize for it.
    Why don't we see the body bags or coffins of American soldiers coming back from Iraq? Censorship is a two-way street, and it seems like the Government learned it's lesson. The anti-war protests in the 60's didn't really start to take off until the news was filled with pictures of body bags coming back from 'Nam.

    My original post, though sarcastic, was only meant to point out the fact that the concepts of "humanity and restraint" and "war" are kind of at odds with each other.

    I'm not looking for a fist fight, I'm just throwing my 2 pennies into the ring.

    War. What is it good for? Absolutely nothin'. (except huge $$ for war-profiteers)
     
  8. Flyborg

    Flyborg Active Member

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    I don't dispute that words and meanings are relative; however the fact remains that CNN did practice some self-censorship and nobody arguing against the showing of the video has acknowledged this. In the same sensationalist verbage that the media itself uses, people are conveniently ignoring the details in order to over-hype the issue. Saying things like:

    are fairly moot considering CNN censored out the actual death. Do I think it was necessary to show the video at all? Probably not. But if you're going to argue against the media's right to show graphically deplorable footage, at least do so without utilizing the same fallable logic as the media itself.
     
  9. RockyMtnC&R

    RockyMtnC&R Banned or Parked

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    You won't believe this......

    That reminds me of the time, 2 years ago, when I was offered to train for a position with Halliburton working for one of their "pest control" companies that served the various US military bases in Iraq. I applied at the encouragement of 2 highschool friends already employed by the company bragging about their endless cash supply each time they would make a return visit for a holiday. It seems somebody with NO EXPERIENCE in pest control can go make $150,000/yr(and only $50,000 of that is taxable if you stay the entire year), setting up traps and spraying chemicals. WHY SO MUCH you ask? It's simple, tax payer dollars are endless. Halliburton isn't paying these guys, WE ARE! It definitely pays to be part of the good ol boy network! This war is all about money channeling, PERIOD.

    Therefore, lets start showing images of US troops getting dropped so that the otherwise complacent American majority will get their fat butts up off the couch and demand and end to this "WAR."
     
  10. Split Bamboo

    Split Bamboo Member

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    First off I am not trying to piss anyone off with this discussion. Sometimes the discussion of controversial subjects gets people pretty heated. I don't mean to personally attack anyone, and I am trying to be civil. If anyone felt I personally attacked them I appologize. If I disagree with your facts or opinions, please don't take this as an attack on you. Also, if my lame attempt at humor at the expense of the English language offended you, I'm sorry. I was poking fun at the words, not which team you play for (that's another Seinfield reference)

    I looked for civilian casualty info from orginizations that would not be considered friendly to the current administration. I didn't find any specifics from Amnesty International, the Red Cross, or the UN. But this site http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/ It seems to use pretty well reasoned methodology, and is clearly against the war, check out the bio's of the orginization. The site reports Iraqi civilian casualties between 44,000 and 49,000, since the start of the US led invasion. The vast majority of the recent deaths appear to be innocent civilians killed by terrorists, or Iraqi police and army recruits killed by terrorists. Any civilian death is one too many, just like any American casualty is one too many.

    I think we can all agree that war is a terrible thing, and no sane person is in favor of war.

    Andrew
     
  11. Snake

    Snake tryin' not to get too comfortable

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    A study reported in The Lancet, a well-respected medical journal, put the number of Iraqi deaths at approx. 100,000, although the authors conceded that the data had "limited precision". Still, it's gotta be tens of thousands of innocents killed.

    "Since early 2002, violence was by far the main cause of death, linked to coalition air strikes in about 95 per cent of cases where people died by the intentional act of others."

    Notice the report didn't mention "insurgents" as the primary cause of death, but "coalition air strikes".

    Maybe this "collateral damage" will justify a "surge of democracy" in the region. Yeah, I'm not holding my breath.......
     
  12. Citori

    Citori Piscatorial Engineer

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    That the war is unpopular is not news. Politicizing the death of one american soldier is unamerican, but somehow now PC. Bush bashing is certainly not new, or news, but is in vogue.

    The questions I keep repeating to myself as I listen to and watch political advertisements, and as I peruse this thread is this - What is the correct course of action? How do we keep safe on our own soil? We have a sect, a religion, a whole world full of people who live to see americans die. How do we best protect ourselves and our loved ones from them?

    I disagree with war, but I am thankful and grateful for those who go in harms way so the rest of us can live to discuss it and lead "normal" lives. As much as I hate and disagree with what is going on now, I cannot support a change until and unless there is a proposal for a way to move forward that improves the situation, and does not give terror a free pass to foment terror on our own soil.

    So, disagree as you will, but pause to thank those who protect our right and ability to do so, and respect them for what they do. Politicizing the death of an american soldier is unamerican - patently disrespectful to the victim and his loved ones, particularly when the images are supplied by the enemy - but standard fare for a liberal press whose agenda is political engineering, at any cost. I, for one, will make up my own mind, without blindly following an administration, or a national press with an agenda.
     
  13. Snake

    Snake tryin' not to get too comfortable

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    I have nothing but respect and admiration for those men and women who go into harm's way to protect my freedoms, it's just their bosses calling the plays I have a problem with.
    So how do you make rational personal decisions without input, and how do you gauge the amount of 'spin' in that input?

    I've been paying attention to the BBC and CBC (British and Canadian Broadcasting Corps) more lately, because they seem to be insulated from the Washington beltway spin cycle.

    I geuss that's probably un-american though.:rolleyes:
     
  14. Citori

    Citori Piscatorial Engineer

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    So my curiousity gets the best of me after I read the article. I go looking on the CNN site for the clip, and find it. Here's the icing on the cake. The video is NOT of the sniper kills (there are a few seconds of the scenes, but it is video of a video screen playing the tape), it is of an ex-US Marine sniper's analysis of the tape sent by the terrorists. The tapes were orchestrated by the terrorists to maximize political impact of the events. The video was taken by observers on the ground coordinated with the snipers shooting from different angles, distances.

    Bottom line, the terrorists were videotaping themselved in their acts of terror, and rather than distribute them themselves, they let CNN do it for them, so they could get better distribution.

    And CNN did it!

    javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/us/2006/10/19/tuchman.ca.sniper.expert.cnn','2006/10/26');

    Words fail me. In the words of Pogo (written by Al Capp, many years ago), "We have met the enemy, and they are us"

    You will have to excuse me, I need to go take a shower.
     
  15. Split Bamboo

    Split Bamboo Member

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    The Lancet article actually puts the number at 650,000.

    The US led coalition began the attack in March of 2003.

    The Lancet article actually credits less than 15% of the deaths to coalition airstrikes.

    The Iraqi Body Count website refutes the Lancet article pretty convincingly.
    http://www.iraqbodycount.org/press/pr14.php

    As Snake point out, the Lancet is a well respected medical journal. This is far different from news article. Publishing in a scientific journal, by definition, is an invitation for criticism and peer review. That is just the way science works.

    As I mentioned before the body count website is against the war, read their conclusion of the Lancet article

    "Do the American people need to believe that 600,000 Iraqis have been killed before they can turn to their leaders and say "enough is enough"? The number of certain civilian deaths that has been documented to a basic standard of corroboration by "passive surveillance methods" surely already provides all the necessary evidence to deem this invasion and occupation an utter failure at all levels"