North Sound surprise

Discussion in 'Saltwater' started by bwillroll, Apr 14, 2014.

  1. Smalma

    Smalma Active Member

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    pbunbury-
    Not sure that anyone is claiming to be an expert.

    However this site is populated by a lot of folks like Preston who have a significant amount of experience (old farts?) and try to stay current with emerging science and information. Those same folks attempt to share on what little they may know or have learned with others here. You can certainly ignore them if you wish but experience has taught most of us to do so will be at our loss.

    BTW -
    The WDFW char article that you provided the link to referred to the recent discovery of bull trout going to the salt and recent regulation changes. Both of those events occurred in the early 1990s. In the 20 years since that time through tagging (both floy and radio) efforts, genetic studies, and other life history work much has been learn about the region's native char in the last 20 years; it is some of the information that Preston was attempting to pass along.
     
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  2. Stonefish

    Stonefish Triploid, Humpy & Seaplane Hater

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    Even old farts like me that have fished here for over 50 years still find some aspects of our fishing and fish to be a puzzle.
    I can't say I've ever seen Preston, Smalma, Salmo g or the likes call themselves experts.
    What they do have is extensive knowledge of our fisheries that I find very interesting and helpful and I'm glad they are willing to share it with us.
    SF
     
  3. pbunbury

    pbunbury Tights Lines

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    I was merely pointing out that "experts" have differing opinions on the matter. I would love to see some pictures and an in depth explanation of the differences between the two. Maybe some of this scientific evidence people keep claiming as well.


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  4. Bagman

    Bagman Active Member

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    Wikipedia states.The back and sides are olive green or muddy gray, shading to white on the belly. The body has scattered pale yellow or pinkish-yellow spots. There are no black spots or wavy lines on the body or fins. Small red spots are present on the lower sides. These are frequently indistinct. The fins are plain and unmarked except for a few light spots on the base of the caudal fin rays. S. malma is extremely similar in appearance to the bull trout (S. confluentus) and arctic char (S. alpinus), so much so that they are sometimes referred to as "native char" without a distinction. (Dolly Varden)
    image.jpg
    Hope this helps?
     
  5. pbunbury

    pbunbury Tights Lines

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    I don't think it's that simple. Here's a photo of a friend with a bull trout that doesn't exactly fit your cookie cutter description ImageUploadedByTapatalk1397921497.463517.jpg


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  6. Patrick Gould

    Patrick Gould Active Member

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    You're right. You shouldn't trust every guy on the internet who considers himself an expert. Do some research and figure it out for yourself. Start by googling curt Kreamer wild steelhead. He just might be someone who you would consider an expert in this area.
     
  7. Pat Lat

    Pat Lat Mad Flyentist

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    If you look into one of the many previous posts on the subject or skim the article you will find that it has already been stated many times over that other than a few slight differences, the fish are so similar that it takes DNA samples to definitively identify them.
    Which is probably why the names are interchangeable for most poeple, myself included, but Dolly varden is simply more fun to say.
    That description with the artists depiction of a bull trout is probably good for differentiating between bull trout and brookies but does nothing to shed light on the dolly varden/bull trout issue.
     
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  8. Roger Stephens

    Roger Stephens Active Member

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  9. pbunbury

    pbunbury Tights Lines

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    If this is indeed the case I find it extremely amusing that a guy who's stoked about catching a "dolly" in the salt, posts about it on here, with no picture, and someone immediately attempts to correct him and tell him that he's wrong

    This guy must be quite the fish expert


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  10. Smalma

    Smalma Active Member

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    pbundary -
    It does not take much of an "expert" to make that call.

    A little background. Prior to 1978 bull trout and Dolly Varden were thought to be the same species with just different life histories. Based on the physical descriptions of two species it was thought that Washington waters had both. In the early 1990s a biologist with UBC develop a method of reliably IDing both species but taking a collection of meristic measures. When this was done with char in the various Puget Sound rivers it was straight forward to separate them. Things when a bit sideways when in one study Dolly Varden and bull trout were tagged with color tags and the two "species" were found spawning in the same areas at the same time and in a number of cases the two were mating with each other. In other words they were behaving as a single population. The only conclusion was either they were a hybridized population or a single population - it should be noted that individuals from both tagged groups were recovered both the rivers and the salt. By the mid- 1990s genetic tools had been developed that would answer the question of whether an individual fish was a" bull" or a "Dolly". The result of the genetic testing found that regardless of whether the fish had the "appearance" of a bull or Dolly they were genetically the same. Further testing confirmed that not only were they genetically the same but they were bull trout.

    Since that time 100s of char from the various north Sound river systems have tested genetically. Other that a small handful of headwater populationst that have been Dolly Varden every other fish has been a bull trout. Every fish sampled in main stem rivers (whether rearing or on their way to the salt) and every fish tested that was or had been in the salt have been determined to be bull trout.

    If you were to check with any of the Dolly Varden/bull trout experts from USFWS, WDFW, or academia they will all tell that any of Washington's native char found in Puget Sound (or the associated main rivers) are bull trout.

    Curt
     
  11. kamishak steve

    kamishak steve Active Member

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    I love science.
     
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  12. Pat Lat

    Pat Lat Mad Flyentist

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    He didn't attempt to correct him, he did.
    And it wasn't like he called the guy an idiot. After seeing the same topic come up over and over its hard not to point out a lesser known FACT about these relatively mysterious char.
    (Which are most assuredly not Atlantic salmon, I know someone wants to say it.)
     
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  13. ceviche

    ceviche Active Member

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    Respect the knowledge that comes from science.

    At the same time, realize that Science is as much a method as a collected body of knowledge. Because it is a method ("The Scientific Method"), the knowledge it produces is provisional--which is to say, it is subject to update and revision. But what makes the knowledge "science" is that it is the most "qualified" (been screened through peer review to insure the conclusion matches the data) knowledge that is available.

    So do appreciate the fact that disagreement within the scientific community does not equate invalidation, inaccuracy, or general "wrongness." It only indicates that The Method is healthy and working as it should and that those involved in the science are merely honing the existing knowledge into a sharper edge.

    In regards to Smalma, Preston, and the rest of those old-timers, I'd like to think that, though they might not be so-called experts, their data base is larger than mine for having waded in in the river of experience called Fly Fishing longer than I have.

    By the way, thanks for the clarification, Curt. That was a very scientific rendering of the info. Was there any other info discussing salt versus fresh water Bull Trout/Dolly Varden? It's just that I got to wondering about the char behavior being similar to rainbows or Cutthroats when it comes to spending time in the salt.

    --Dave
     
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  14. wadin' boot

    wadin' boot Donny, you're out of your element...

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    You are hanging with the wrong crowd.
     
  15. boxcar

    boxcar Scott Willison

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    Hi Brent. It's that Scott indeed. I remember you stopped by the shop not long before you hit the beach. Hope yesterday went well. Today wasn't bad, but the wind was something else out there today. It was certainly a nice day to be left handed though! Brought a few nice fish to hand, though still didn't see much in the way of fry out in the main channel.