Occupy Skagit Redux

ak_powder_monkey

Proud to Be Alaskan
for all the bitching and moaning on this board about the lack of conservatism in regulations in washington, its pretty nuts that when conservative management is in place everybody bitches.

Seriously.

And yes I imagine every single fish in the system get hooked. I haven't seen data from the skagit, but on "popular" steelhead rivers (we are talking a couple thousand angler days maybe) up here, every fish gets landed pretty much every year. It's a pretty safe assumption that a river as pressured as the skagit every fish will get hooked at least once.
 
Fact: A properly managed commercial salmon fishery maximizes the amount of salmon on earth.
Fact: Due to commercial fishing there are more salmon on Earth and any other time in history.

Now there's a ton wrong with current management schemes, but lets not demonize commercial fishing as a whole. Lets just work to make it better.

And your saying that I am bitching about a C&R season when numbers get above escapement.
I would like to understand how a properly managed commercial salmon fishery maximizes the amount of salmon on earth and then explain to me how a responsible C&R fishery (when numbers reach escapement) is going to make that run drop off the face of the earth.
 
so C&R seasons are shown to kill (say) 5% of the catch (in the case of the skagit, the entire run), this means that there must be a harvestable surplus to have a season. Therefore 2.5% of the run can legally be harvested by treaty fishermen.

I for one would rather not have more steelhead be killed by in river gill nets, than hook a fish once a year maybe.
It is unlikley that any of the tribes will target wild steelhead. They'll use any additional impacts to account for bycatch in other fisheries (spring chinook, hatchery steelhead and sockeye). The Chinook and sockeye fisheries are big money, and jeopardized when steelhead impacts get too high.
 
After seeing the tactics of the scuba diving community where they threatened and harassed a fellow scuba diver over the lawful take of an octopus, it seems to me if people really want to make a difference similar tactics should be used. The threats of violence worked. They are getting a hearing and the fish and game commission is considering several options including banning the take of octopus in the Puget Sound, and the take of any marine animal off the dive beaches in Seattle. Intimidation won. If Occupy Skagit doesn't work, and I dont think it will, maybe a page from the scuba divers book is in order. It sure worked for the scuba divers.
 

ak_powder_monkey

Proud to Be Alaskan
Fact: A properly managed commercial salmon fishery maximizes the amount of salmon on earth.
Fact: Due to commercial fishing there are more salmon on Earth and any other time in history.

Now there's a ton wrong with current management schemes, but lets not demonize commercial fishing as a whole. Lets just work to make it better.

And your saying that I am bitching about a C&R season when numbers get above escapement.
I would like to understand how a properly managed commercial salmon fishery maximizes the amount of salmon on earth and then explain to me how a responsible C&R fishery (when numbers reach escapement) is going to make that run drop off the face of the earth.
Salmon have different limiting factors that steelhead. Therefore a well managed commercial fishery for salmon is a good thing for everybody. Well managed commercial fisheries for steelhead do not exist.

Anyway I was under the impression that escapement on the skagit was around 1000 fish the past few years. If its making escapement a C&R season is warranted for sure.
 

Salmo_g

Well-Known Member
If the run estimates figures are even close to being correct they can not afford to lose 300-600 fish from a C&R mortality rate of 5-10%.
How do you figure? And this assumes every fish in the population is caught once, an extremely unlikely outcome. And the studies that examine steelhead caught multiple times found that those fish survived to spawn just as well as the others.

Let's say the run is 5,000 adults, and every fish is caught once, which isn't likely, and the incidental mortality rate is 10%, resulting in 4,500 spawners. If one examines the Skagit escapement records since 1978, subsequent runs are just as likely to be good with 4,500 spawners as with a larger spawning escapement. Remember, spawner - recruit analysis doesn't even support the present escapement of 6,000 for MSH.

Why form visceral conclusions when you could form rational ones based on logical analysis?

Sg
 

bennysbuddy

the sultan of swing
It is unlikley that any of the tribes will target wild steelhead. They'll use any additional impacts to account for bycatch in other fisheries (spring chinook, hatchery steelhead and sockeye). The Chinook and sockeye fisheries are big money, and jeopardized when steelhead impacts get too high.
Bingo, its all about the money!!!!
 
Derek is right about the tribes ramping up their Chinook, Sockeye, and hatchery steelhead fisheries with additional impacts but I would bet my truck they will target wild steelhead if the harvest rate was increased. They have been targeting wild steelhead in C&S fisheries since the C&R season was shut down and they are going to take another 50-100 this spring in addition to the surprisingly large number they already took in their hatchery steelhead fishery which was shut down early due to impacts. One reason for these relatively small numbers is that it looks bad for them to be fishing when we aren't. To think that effort wont increase if we are allowed back on the river is kind of silly. If a C&R fishery ever happened, a lot more steelhead would die regardless of the fishery but as others have pointed out, harvest is not a limiting factor in recovery.
 

freestoneangler

Not to be confused with Freestone
Derek is right about the tribes ramping up their Chinook, Sockeye, and hatchery steelhead fisheries with additional impacts but I would bet my truck they will target wild steelhead if the harvest rate was increased. They have been targeting wild steelhead in C&S fisheries since the C&R season was shut down and they are going to take another 50-100 this spring in addition to the surprisingly large number they already took in their hatchery steelhead fishery which was shut down early due to impacts. One reason for these relatively small numbers is that it looks bad for them to be fishing when we aren't. To think that effort wont increase if we are allowed back on the river is kind of silly. If a C&R fishery ever happened, a lot more steelhead would die regardless of the fishery but as others have pointed out, harvest is not a limiting factor in recovery.
That happened on the Green as well. What seemed like one positive step forward was offset by one (or more) steps back. This is a possible impact of a C&R fishery that everyone should consider.
 
Derek is right about the tribes ramping up their Chinook, Sockeye, and hatchery steelhead fisheries with additional impacts but I would bet my truck they will target wild steelhead if the harvest rate was increased. They have been targeting wild steelhead in C&S fisheries since the C&R season was shut down and they are going to take another 50-100 this spring in addition to the surprisingly large number they already took in their hatchery steelhead fishery which was shut down early due to impacts. One reason for these relatively small numbers is that it looks bad for them to be fishing when we aren't. To think that effort wont increase if we are allowed back on the river is kind of silly. If a C&R fishery ever happened, a lot more steelhead would die regardless of the fishery but as others have pointed out, harvest is not a limiting factor in recovery.
Having the Tribes as partners instead of adversaries would be usefull in these types of situations, like it or not they are co-managers and it would behoove us to have them as allies.
 

KerryS

Ignored Member
Having the Tribes as partners instead of adversaries would be usefull in these types of situations, like it or not they are co-managers and it would behoove us to have them as allies.
If the tribes want to join us then by all means they are welcome to do so. I guess they could stretch cork line without web across the river. As far as I am concerned Occupy Skagit has nothing to do with tribal fishing. We are attempting to reinstate the spring C&R season for steelhead on the Skagit, period. The tribes can do whatever they do. It has no bearing on Occupy Skagit. If the end result turns out to be that we indeed achieve the reopening of the C&R season and the tribes kill more steelhead using the C&R season as justification, that is on them, not us. I, for one, am not going to take any responsibility for what the tribes do.
 

freestoneangler

Not to be confused with Freestone
If the end result turns out to be that we indeed achieve the reopening of the C&R season and the tribes kill more steelhead using the C&R season as justification, that is on them, not us. I, for one, am not going to take any responsibility for what the tribes do.
Clearly for some, it's all about the fishing and not really about the welfare of the fish...wonder who will be the one to catch the last one?
 

inland

Active Member
Clearly for some, it's all about the fishing and not really about the welfare of the fish...wonder who will be the one to catch the last one?
And yet for some there will never be enough fish to justify fishing for them. It doesn't matter how much evidence is presented showing a C&R season (including tribal harvest) is not going to lead to the bullshit scenario you keep bringing up...oh the last one...you will discount it because you know better.