Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by BOBLAWLESS, Feb 26, 2005.
Religion. No thanks.
Religion. Give thanks!
speaking of taxes...... hmmmmm? aren't we taxing everything else these days? Nothing seems untouchable, especially issues deemed a public safety or health threat, so why not churches???
It is a public safety issue when you understand that Sunday is the only day many elderly drive- ( ok maybe twice a week, Sunday and Bingo day at the senior center)
If we could tax the churches out of business we could remove some of that public safety risk, perhaps by 50%.
My comment which you quoted is not an assumption, I am taliking about the chistian's God while there are many gods that people worship there is only one christian God, The God of Creation.
There are many sects within the definition of Christianity there is only one True God of christianity.
While I appreciate the "spiritual experiences" that many people have, a spiritual experience can be with a another person or with nature or in meditation. A spiritual experience can be peaceful or enlightening. But the difference is that when this spiritual experience is rooted in the believe of the God of Creation there is power that flows from God to you, if the spiritual experience is just an experience the power has to come from within, it is limited by our own frailties. There is no positive supernatural power in just feeling good.
There is no power in having great faith, only power in having little faith in a big God.
Davy even though you are being sarcastic about taxes, I agree with you. (not the part about little old people driving on Sunday)
I believe that if people are doing God's work In God's way then it will be successful (nothing will thwart God's plan) Therefore the Christian church, and Christian ministers do not need a tax break. Every church should be on the same footing with any other business and pay taxes on all income and property. It wouldn't take long for those churches that are not doing Gods work to be out of business. The mega rich churches with the huge cathedrals and TV evangelists (shudder)would have no incentive from the government to hide income and assets. This would make the churches that survive more genuine.
I saw a sign the other day and it read "Faith is daring the soul to go beyond what the eyes can see". I really liked that sign
There has been a lot of civil conversation so far.....that is awesome. Typically I would say "gee, thanks Bob....here we go again", but this time it seems to be different. :thumb:
When you mention the "golden rule" are you talking about the ten commandments or just the "do unto others as you want them to do unto you"?
When I lived this way I thought I was doing alright. But when I started to examine my life and try to keep a journal of my rights and my wrongs, I realized it was not adding up. Maybe you are way better of a person than me, but when I added my good versus bad up, the bad really outweighed the good. And I'm not talking about murder and adultry, but the little things really add up. You know, when you look at a woman with lustful eyes, think judgemental thoughts about someone because of what they posted or what they said or what they were wearing or where they lived or the type of life they were living or the kind of car they drove or the brand of rod they were fishing or where they worked or how they worked or how they didnt work or how they raised their kids or how they treated their parents or how they used wet flies instead of dry flies, ect.... This all ties into that golden rule. We can not pick and choose what we want to be accountable for. We are accountable for every little action, every little thought, every little trait.
What really changed my life was doing the research for myself, not attending some organized religion on sunday mornings.. I was walking through life thinking that all would be well cause I was generally a good person. When I looked for God, I found him. He is there and he is a loving God who cares for you more than you could ever imagine. He is an undeniable God. I know you have some time on your hands Bob, or anyone for that matter, use it to research on your own and dont listen to anyone. You are very intelligent and I know if you look into it with an open mind you will find the truth. Pick up a bible and read it, research it, try to find falicies and fictions that are undeniable. If what the bible says about heaven and hell are true, I would think everyone would want to research it on their own and try to prove its wrong so hell doesnt happen. If eternity is really going to happen, thats a lot longer than any time we will spend here on earth. I know when I tried to disprove God I failed. Please Bob, research it and pm me your findings or questions. I would love to carry a dialogue about this as it could do us both good. :thumb:
last words = if heaven and hell do exist and God is the only way to heaven, but we choose to ignore or not believe this is reality, then when we die we will spend eternity in hell. If heaven and hell do not exist and we choose to believe in them then when we die, we will simply die. So if you choose to believe in God and God is real, you will be happy when you die. But if you choose to not believe in God, you are going to be very unhappy when you die.
I didnt quite follow your post? Are you saying that you use to be a Christian but have since turned away from Christ? Or did I read that wrong?
I do agree with you on the church aspect. The whole organized religion aspect of today is corrupt. People who talk the talk but do not walk the walk truly do give Christians a bad reputation. It seems every time I watch a so-called Christian television show, all they want is money. God doesnt need our money :beathead: he gave us our money.
And welcome to the board :thumb: I look forward to your input.
Excellent post cmtundra
I hope you slept well...
Patrick your comment about this being different than other converstions on the site is true so far. Let's keep it that way everyone. A civil discourse is possible on religious issues contrary to what some may believe.
If your not interested in a lively but civilized discourse do what Big K1 did no thanks no harassment no smart aleck comments just no thanks. :thumb:
Wow...I never come to this forum but I'm glad I did...
I am a pagan...I believe in a power around me but it is not an ancient bearded old man...that would be Santa Claus. More death and destruction, suffering and torment has been brought upon humans by their primitive beliefs that any other single factor in all of human existance. Millions upon millions have suffered and died throughout all human history because "your god is not my god" and it's still going on today.
I implore everyone to read this article by respected journalist Bill Moyers. He details how our current christian administration doesn't care about our natural world. They are trying to accelerate armeggedon with their policies. The sooner the natural world is destroyed, the sooner they sit next to their god.
There is no tomorrow
And to pwoens
If you do choose to believe in them and act according to the doctrine...how much damage will you have done to your fellow man before you die?
Hell is a christian concoction to control the masses through fear and guilt...the exact tact taken by the Bush adiminstration..."if you're not with us, you're with the terrorists"..."if you do not follow interpretation X, Y or Z of the bible, you will go to hell"
If fear and ignorance were not a cornerstone of christianity, then why was the "tree of knowledge" forbidden? Is knowledge a threat to primitive belief systems?
Remember, it wasn't that long ago that christian love meant you were tied to stick and set on fire!
yeah Jesse agreed- I was just trying the new public safety and health tact since this seems to be where our gov't is going after new tax revenue from--sin taxes,etc-- how about a god tax then to ?
I haven't heard an annoucement yet that the Skykomish C&R season is being reopened so I guess there isn't a Lord Almighty , just the WDFW .......I prayed and prayed and even refrained from having more than three cocktails last night to see if he would deliver.
... theres your sign
Figure it out for yourself...
16. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
So Genesis was a lie...no one died. Eve had some kids didn't she...she didn't die, she was just relocated 'cuz she called gods bluff...she learned something.
Roper, everyone...please don't be offended by anything I may post...I really love a good debate and may get a bit confrontational at times. I have been struggling with what I percieve as "brainwashing through guilt and intimidation" since I fell from the Catholic flock when I became inquisitive as a teenager (which is evil because you don't ever question or you go to hell). I am a very analytical person and need sources to back up what I am told is true.
If you tell me "I believe in hell" thats fine, I would never ask anyone to prove their faith, it can't be done. But if you tell me "There is a hell and you are destined for it"...I'm gonna ask for 3 independant sources of proof. The bible and any evidence derived from it only count as one.
I firmly believe the bible is a great historical text of events in middle eastern history. Most of it was written long after the fact by simple people using opium to curb the pangs of starvation which was common at the time.
Is it the word of god? No one knows...you may believe it, but you can't prove a belief, you can only prove a fact.
I believe it was the word of man, enchanced by chemically induced "miracles".
First of all, I think this thread is part of Bob Lawless's plan to divide and conquer the known world, starting with this forum! Just kidding.
A few observations.
Some of the strongest, finest men I have ever known I met at church as a young man. Worldly men, well-educated, well-balanced, tolerant, happy, caring; these men were the foundations of their families and the communities around them. They never proclaimed that they where these things -- you could just tell. They were the kind of person I wish I were today and hope to be tomorrow. When I hear people decry church-goers as weak-minded fearful simpletons I immediately write off the source of these utterances as ... well, just wrong. It just doesn't jive with my experience.
I think that 75% of going to church is about community. People are hard-wired to want to belong to a community. If church did not exist, people would invent a reason to get dressed up one day a week and make a trip into town to connect. In this sense, the denomination of the faithful is irrelevant. In a weird parallel, I find that gathering with my fly-fishing faithful is a similar experience. Usually there's a mix of older men and younger and they exhibit the same behavioral patterns you'd find at church. I feel the same sense kinship and experience the same respect for the men who have gone before me and who want to help the new guy.
Lastly, I think that, in a discourse such as this one, one should stay away from the flawed violence-from-religion argument. It's irrational and just plain wrong.
Death by Communism: 120 Million
World War II direct deaths: 56 Million
Chinese Civil War - 40 Million
Total: 216 Million (and these are just the first three off the top of my head).
I challenge anyone to gather up deaths caused by religion that are even in the same order of magnitude. This doesn't even include the 618,000 Americans who died determining whether a man should be free or not. So the argument that religion has killed more people than everything else is just so crazy-wrong as to be laughable. I would posit from the numbers above that many more people have been killed because they believed in something than otherwise.
Anyway, those are just some observations from my admittedly-limited time here on earth.
That's a tough one just because of lack of accurate record keeping throughout history. We've been a lot more thorough in keeping track of these things in recent decades. The examples you cite are certainly valid though, and are by no means thorough when you consider the genocides that slide under the radar. After all who remembers the Armenian genocide? Oh wait, that one was religious, and served as an example that Hitler followed...
At any rate, with as violent as world history has been, I have a hard time believing that war deaths in the past century exceed all those throughout human history. Even an educated estimate would not suffice, for there are those who believe humans have only existed for 8000 years, whereas others believe this is only a tiny fraction of human history. It's one of those things you can debate forever, but neither side will have sufficient evidence to sway the other. People believe what they want to believe.
Your inquisitiveness is admirable and something all of us I think should have when it comes to issues of faith, God, religion, etc.. What strikes me is that its your inquisitiveness as a teenager which utlimately led to your falling away from the Catholic faith. In my experience, it has been my inquisitiveness and search for "rationality" within religion that has not simply helped me remain Catholic, but has deepened my faith in God. I suppose I find the philosophsical influences of the Catholic theological tradition to be more compelling than what you find in the Evangelical/fundamentalist churches.
As for who goes to hell and who does not, there is not a person on earth who can say with certainity he or she knows someone is actually in hell. Such a judgment is reserved for God and God alone. Human beings do not have the capacity to make such judgments, so we are better served not to make them. When we do, all that is accomplished is further division and seperation amongst an already divided human race. In the end, we are all in this world together, and what we do and how we act should reflect our love and concern for others, even those who differ from us politically, ethnically, culturally, and theologically. God is not on the side of Catholics, Protestants, Hindus, Athiests, Muslims, etc.. but rather (or ideally) we as human beings are (or hopefully will be) on the side of the God who created us.
Keep your inquisitiveness and openness. It can serve you very well.
Come on Dave, think about it. The Old Testament was written in an old language, Eve did die, not that "day" but after that day. Who knows, maybe she and Adam would have lived forever if they had heeded God's word.
Don't worry, you don't offend me. I merely suggested you find out for yourself. Sorry to hear you were Catholic, I'm not too impressed with their doctorine, dogma, or whatever you care to call it. They're still in the dark ages if you ask me. There have been many prophets over the ages, each one has spoken God's word as could be understood at that time. I believe we are in an age of understanding that goes beyond the old prophets. But I also believe in what they brought to us. Rarely will you find a church that follows the Word without putting it's own benefit and twist on it. But the writings are there for all to read and understand.
Too bad the Pagans (whoever they are) didn't have a written language, you could quote something on heaven and hell... :clown:
As far a being analytical ( root word anal...?) Einstein was quoted as saying..."I want to know God's thoughts, the rest is all details..."