On religion and such

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by BOBLAWLESS, Feb 26, 2005.

  1. dmoocher

    dmoocher Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Olympia, Wa.
    Your assumption is false, that's not it at all. People who don't believe as you are not going out of their way to find reasons to debunk your faith. On the contrary...most christian leaders go out of their way to debunk evolution, reincarnation, natural selection, astrology, astronomy, geology, the energy that is mother earth, the kinship we share with other living creatures...things we hold dear that in many christian eyes are "ungodly, evil and must be destroyed"...the old "love the sinner, hate the sin" argument...it's only a sin in your eyes.

    We were not given dominion over all living things...we are a part of all living things. I truly envy my Bhuddist friends...they've got it right and we could all learn something from them.
     
  2. chadk

    chadk Be the guide...

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    5,057
    Likes Received:
    43
    Location:
    Snohomish, WA.
    "People who don't believe as you are not going out of their way to find reasons to debunk your faith."

    Certainly not all of them, but many do actually do just that. I run into them quite frequently...

    "most christian leaders go out of their way to debunk..."

    Many do, but I wouldn't say most. Most Christians understand that God created science and they love it for what it is - a way to understand, in a limited way, God and His Creation.

    "...we are a part of all living things. "

    Perhaps you are right. But I don't personally think so.

    "I truly envy my Bhuddist friends...they've got it right and we could all learn something from them."

    Why do you envy them? If they have it so 'right', why don't you convert???




    Well, I finally wrapped up my project at work, so I'm off for a few days of trout fishing on the dry side of the state. :beer2:
     
  3. pwoens

    pwoens Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2004
    Messages:
    2,557
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    Spokane, Washington, USA.
    Home Page:
    theft, murder, adultry, ect....I would tend to think most every logical person, regardless of religion, would agree these are sins. So if you do not consider things of this nature sinful, then the scales on your eyes are thicker than I could ever imagine.


    Why envy them? You could research it and become one if you so desired. I mean, we are " a part of all things" aren't we?

    I must have skipped that part in the bible that told me to destroy all things I didnt agree with :confused: Could you point me to that part of the scripture? Thanks Dave :thumb:
     
  4. dmoocher

    dmoocher Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Olympia, Wa.
    Never mentioned them but since you brought it up...many cultures have no such thing as adultery...polygamy and polyandry was not uncommon in early tribal culture-then came the missionaries and then came the soldiers.

    Murder is bad...unless of course you are fighting a holy war or are having trouble converting the heathen masses in far off lands.
    They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)


    Theft...Once the heathen masses have been vanquished...we just can't let the resources go to waste.
    As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

    Personally, I don't have a void in my life I feel needs to be filled by identifying with one particular mindset. By following a single dogma I may become limited in my view of the world and could fall into self-righteousness. :thumb:


    btw: My buddy got one coho...I dug some clams.
     
  5. sean

    sean Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2003
    Messages:
    112
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Seattle,WA
    Home Page:
    Been an interesting discussion for sure. I am not religious but was raised that way and I have found one thing that really makes this whole argument mute.

    When it comes down to it religion is faith based. Faith and rational , fact based thinking are really two separate things. You cannot prove God exists, you just gotta believe. Faith trumps all and there is not a whole lot I or others can really do to persuade someone who has faith. It is maddening but that is how it is. Whenever I have ever argued my science based beliefs with a believer it always ends with the same thing...the person ultimately ends it with 'I have faith'.

    My only problem is when someone's faith interrupts my or others way of life. Keep the faith to yourself and I am fine with it. I am all about letting others make thier own choices in life and can say a decent amount of christians seem OK with this.

    Power and religion are always a dangerous mix and this has been proven time and time again in history. Why is this? I am not entirely sure but I think it all boils down to faith. The person in power believes they are doing the right thing in God's eyes with no real way to check in with God for a status report. Followers of that person in power are confronted with quite the dilema. If they do not go along with it they might possibly be going against Gods will which is a big no-no in the scripture. That person in power now wields quite a bit of sway whether it be the town preacher or the president of the United States. Scary stuff can and does happen when that power is abused. Unfortunately most people in the world do not have enough backbone to confront these folks out of fear.

    Some will stand up and cry foul but it usually is only a few and a couple beheadings take care of that ;)

    -sean
     
  6. dmoocher

    dmoocher Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Olympia, Wa.
    I'd be happy to...

    "He that sacrifice unto any god save the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed" (Exodus 22:20)

    "He who is not with me is against me" (Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:23);

    "he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him" (Leviticus 24:16)

    "Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy....And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein.." (Numbers 33:52-53).

    Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2)

    Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. (Numbers 31:7-18)

    Woman with “familiar spirits” must be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27)

    Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. (Exodus 22:18)

    Anyone proselytizing for another religion is to be put to death, and if that person is a member of your family, you are to strike the first blow to kill him or her (Deuteronomy 13:5-10)


    I'm getting tired now...I can do some more later.

    Pat...I'm not so sure we are reading the same book?
     
  7. Big Tuna

    Big Tuna Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,050
    Likes Received:
    108
    Location:
    Wenatchee, Washington
    Interesting thread started by Bob-the-Tolerant who gets the willies from all these born-agains and fundamentalists. I hesitate to weigh-in on these discussions because faith doesn't come by persuasion (Eph. 2:8, Romans 8:29-30/NKJV). However, it's hard to let pass D Moocher's assertions on the nature of Christianity. Although I'm glad to see he is reading his Bible, or at least knows how to use a concordance, I humbly disagree with his statements. It's quite possible to take individual scriptures or snippets of scripture out of context and paint a pretty grim picture. In truth, the Bible is all about the history of redemption; it's all about grace. From Genesis 3:15 through Revelation, the Bible is about God's covenant to save sinners. A covenant sealed by the blood of His only begotten Son and motivated by a love too profound to truly comprehend (Romans 8:35-39). There are many books/chapters/verses/doctrines of Scripture that I don't fully understand, including some of those you mentioned, but that keeps me coming back for more. But included in those things I don't fully understand are: grace (Rom. 5:6-11), how to love my enemies (Luke 6:27-36), how to forgive someone 70 times 7 times, how to forgive consistently and entirely (Matthew 6:14-15), how a father loves a prodigal (Luke 15:11-32), and on and on. Christianity is not devoid of boneheads and obnoxious folks; we're all sinners who work out our faith imperfectly (Rom. 8:18-19). However, the essence of that faith is grace, grace, and more grace.
     
  8. Salvelinus

    Salvelinus Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2004
    Messages:
    190
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    WA
    Good post sean. I promised myself that I wouldn't get involved in this post but I guess I lied. My knowledge of the Bible is limited. All I'm going to say is that please, let's not use math to try to prove that the Ark was real, OK? The dimensions of the Ark? Are you kidding me? Can't we just have faith that it was real, that God helped Noah or something? I thought faith was faith and that you couldn't disprove it with logic or science. It doesn't bother me when people argue for religion based on faith, or when people try to disprove it with reason. What does bother me is when people try to justify miraculous events with reason. If God is omnipotent, then he can do what he wants, who cares what the damn dimensions and weight capacity of the boat is. Why don't you just take God out of the picture and say Noah was just the best carpenter ever? That said, I really don't care who believes what as long as it makes you happy and doesn't hurt me, other people or the environment.
     
  9. dmoocher

    dmoocher Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2003
    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Olympia, Wa.
    I can see this rapidly degenerating into a tit-for-tat argument. When you read the bible, you see evidendce of gods love...when I read it I see evidence of contradiction, fear, vengance and hate...the same for the Torah and Koran (what little I do know of them). We apply our own personal filter to everything we read...you may dismiss passages I find critical to my position and vice-versa.

    I was raised in a strict catholic house, I attended catachism for years, I've been confirmed a "soldier of God"...I do have some knowledge of the subject...not as much as I would like to have. It was all empty.

    I believe in the science...the testable, the confirmable, the rational...all else is folklore and fairytales.
     
  10. BOBLAWLESS

    BOBLAWLESS New Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2002
    Messages:
    2,861
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Port Ludlow, WA, USA.
    "But to be honest, I think I am drained by people." Andy Goldsworthy

    Such a naughty boy I am I have fear to write less the righteous should villify me some more and heap more scorn upon me and claim that I am trying to divide and then to conquer (conquer? conquer what might I ask?). Were there no divisions on the board before I wrote this post? Am I a divider? Must the messenger always be slain? Is religion a forbidden subject?

    Truthfully, I just thought it might be entertaining and informative to have a religious discussion: calmy, cooly and yes, with some tolerance for divergent opinions. Yet, there is an ugly undertone here that I find disturbing--a sort of let's get these bastards that don't agree with us. I can't fish with guys like that; they make me nervous and I fish to relax.

    I'm going to chill out on this though I am full of thoughts on the subject because it is an important one in our lives and should not be ignored, not swept under the carpet, not "off limits" so to speak.

    But I will always wonder how anybody can have the unmitigated gall to take the bible (itself so difficult to grasp, so convoluted, so vague and filled with contradictions) and claim it says this or that. Who are you? Some sage from heaven come down to tell us all what the real poop is? Have you no shame? Does your ego have no bounds?

    And so I suppose if there is something about some Christians that does piss me off, it is this attitude: "I've got the answers to it all and you should listen up to me." Such bravado has had little impact on my thinking and I suppose it is why I don't go to church and listen to someone pontificate about the way the world should be or, more importantly, how I should be. Plus I suspect a lot of these self-righteous know it alls. The BTK killer was president of his church, you know.

    Bob, the Thanks to all that contributed to this discussions and please continue. I am not sure if it has been of much value but I have been astonished by some the wisdom and energy presented in these last six pages. Fly fishermen may be many things but they are definitely not stupid. :beer2: And yes, most Christians are really good at heart. And so to are those who remain apart. :thumb:
     
  11. Jason Baker

    Jason Baker Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    775
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Ft. Mill, SC
    The concrete science, the "testable, confirmable, the rational" isn't what drives one to dedicate their live in it's pursuits. It's the unknown that drives science. It's the search for understanding, the quest of enlightment that is at the hearts core of any true scientist. The scientist is somewhat challenged by the lack of answer to our existence. They struggle a lifetime to answer the unanswerable. For others, there is faith. They find their peace by understanding and accepting that it's beyond our grasp. That's where you meet your God. There are many names, in many languages, that are used to describe this God. In the end, the scientist and the christian are only different in one way. One is looking, while the other has found his answer. In that answer is much peace....
     
  12. pwoens

    pwoens Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2004
    Messages:
    2,557
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    Spokane, Washington, USA.
    Home Page:
    Dave,

    Out of the scripture you quoted, only two came from the new testament, and both are the same. This sinlge quote from the new testament does not state anything about persecuting or killing or beating. It simply states the facts, "he who is not with me is against me".

    As true followers of Christ, we do read the old testament, but when Christ came he obolished the old way.....he replaced the old way by dying on the cross then resurrecting. He laid down the new path to salvation and that path is one of love.

    I am certain that we read the same book, it's just with a different heart.

    I have spoken the truth and wether or not you choose to believe it is up to you. Your relationship with God is something I can do nothing about but I pray that you find salvation before it is too late.

    I am out of this thread as the tit-for-tat has begun. iagree
     
  13. Old Man

    Old Man Just an Old Man

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2002
    Messages:
    24,400
    Likes Received:
    3,314
    Location:
    Dillon, Mt
    I totally agree with all of you. We all read the bible and come up with different feelings about it. Just like any other book. And with the bible there are different versions of it. I have read a few of them on my years on this earth. And I agree that this thread shoud end. When you all start quoting the bible I have to quit. Besides it take to long to read all of this and I can't seem to get on with what is at hand.

    Jim...........The old one who doesn't like to talk religion or politics. Becase it always gets to name calling and hatred.
     
  14. pwoens

    pwoens Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2004
    Messages:
    2,557
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    Spokane, Washington, USA.
    Home Page:
    Oh Jim

    ah Jim...how could I ever hate you.....I mean, after all you are my adopted red-headed grandfather :p
     
  15. Old Man

    Old Man Just an Old Man

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2002
    Messages:
    24,400
    Likes Received:
    3,314
    Location:
    Dillon, Mt
    Oh Jim

    See there you go. I have gray hair and I keep it cut very short. Don't have to worry about combing it that way. I haven't run a comb or a brush thru my hair in over 6 years. But.......................

    Jim