Washington Fly Fishing Forum banner

Question about baiting for hunting

NFR 
3K views 51 replies 20 participants last post by  xdog 
#1 ·
I'm not a hunter (although I am an avid consumer of the end results of hunts). I have a place in NCW which is considered prime mule deer habitat and a neighboring land owner between my place and USFS land. The neighbor and I have had several run ins during hunting season because he gives every Tom, Dick, and Harry permission (and the lock combo) to drive through my land (he has an easement) to hunt. So yesterday I watched his son drive up with a huge wood crate of apples and after the kid left, I went up to check on my suspicions, and indeed, the apples were left near a small stream and Aspen stand, perfect deer habitat. They are baiting for next weekend (opening weekend of the season).

Now, I have no problems with hunting. And I understanding baiting for deer and elk is legal in Washington State.

But it seems like cheating to me. Is it? In this case, because of how dry it's been and the fact this land owner also mowed then herbicided his fields, making food sources scarce, it is almost like throwing dynamite in a fish pond. But if it is the generally accepted method hunting deer, I'll stop being bugged by it.

Is it?

Below is a picture of the "apple stash."

Many thanks!

--Kim
Plant People in nature Insect Natural landscape Groundcover
 
See less See more
1
#4 ·
Baiting is a method used. Many would argue that it is cheating. Anyone that has done it can attest that it isn't as simple and productive as many would think. Many people assume you throw a pile of apples out there every couple of days for a week or 2 and then on opening day you go out and shoot an animal. There are way too many factors involved for it to be that simple and it isn't that effective.

What I have found is that the more people truely know and experience first hand by doing, the more difficult it is to take a firm stance on either side of these debates. Eventually, it boils down to what provides the individual with whatever experience they are after when they step into the field. After awhile you start to realize that the beads vs. swinging, nymphing vs. dry flies, baiting vs. not, modern firearms vs. muzzleloaders, muzzleloaders vs. archery, compond bows vs. traditional, sleds vs. drifting, wading vs. boats, etc, etc, etc, etc, all boil down to what provides each person with the experience and feeling of self satisfaction that they are searching for in the field.
 
#5 ·
Haha. It's bad enough that the adjacent landowner essentially tells everyone in the county that it's ok to access the USFS land through his land, so sorry, no coordinates!

I had done my research and knew it was legal in Washington (not many other states, however), but am really wondering about the ethical or sense of fair chase in it. Like I said, it feels like dynamite in a fish pond.

I was thinking of taking my dogs up there and letting them, well, er, use the apples as a fire hydrant thinking the scent might scare off the deer...!

Kim
 
#34 ·
Haha. It's bad enough that the adjacent landowner essentially tells everyone in the county that it's ok to access the USFS land through his land, so sorry, no coordinates!

I had done my research and knew it was legal in Washington (not many other states, however), but am really wondering about the ethical or sense of fair chase in it. Like I said, it feels like dynamite in a fish pond.

I was thinking of taking my dogs up there and letting them, well, er, use the apples as a fire hydrant thinking the scent might scare off the deer...!

Kim
Baiting for big game in Washington State is a legal activity. If you believe it is the equivalent to "dynamite in a fish pond" (an illegal act) you are simply exhibiting your ignorance.

A few points of fact for your education on the topic since your so fired up about the legalities of hunting.

It is illegal to harass or obstruct a legal hunt in the State of Washington, which arguably you have already or are considering doing so.
http://www.huntwashingtonstate.com/HWS/washingtonhuntinglaws.htm

Trespass is also Illegal which apparently you have admitted to and further posted evidence thereof in this thread.

Further you presume very much about hunting which admittedly and obviously you know little about. You have impled that this person doesn't need to hunt because he affluent? Seriously? You further imply that because he hunts multiple states you assume the meat is unused or wasted? Do you have any basis of fact or they big assumptions on you behalf. You might consider the fact that some of us actually enjoy hunting and not merely because we have to, much like the fact few if any of us "have" to fish. I can assure you that I, me, my family of one has no problem consuming 3-5 big animals in addition to many waterfowl and a occasional fish annually.

You said you do not oppose hunting and question the ethics and legality of your neighbor, while your ranting, ethics and legality are really the topics in question here. So now let me ask you is it you or neighbor that is the "illusionist"?
 
#6 ·
Yes, TD, I would agree that it's as complicated as the debates in our fly fishing world...and my guess is baiting like that isn't as effective as some would think, although this is the second time I've seen this guy (or hid son) do it, so they must be able to get some buck out of the deal.

Kim
 
#9 ·
You might be able to do something about his giving out the combo. How far does his easement extend? Can he let everybody in the state cross your land. He has an easement for ingress and egress, not for a highway. You might want to check with a lawyer. I am definitely not anti-hunting but to me, what he is doing is not hunting, it is killing. That being the case, I might serenade the "hunters" with some really nice heavy metal. Deer love it. And let the dogs do their thing overtime.
 
#10 ·
Is it ethical? Depends on the person I guess. The state opens deer season for a week or two to reduce the numbers of deer to maintain a healthy population. You are aloud one deer a year here in washington ( unless you are lucky and draw a secand deer tag for a certain area) so what difference does it make how you harvest that deer so long as it is legal. If the state does not think the deer population can handle someone taking one deer a year then they should change some of their regulations.
 
#14 ·
If you read my post I did not say I was in favor of baiting deer. Only stated that it should be up to the individual on how they would like to harvest their one deer as long at it is LEGAL to do so. Jeff and bennysbuddy it is illegal for the recreational fisherman to snag fish, use dynamite or gillnet fish. That is the difference! Baiting deer is LEGAL, whether you or I agree with it is our own choice or opinion. It is up to each hunter on whether or not that they feel it is ethical or the way they would like to hunt. Personally I don't bait deer but if someone wants to im not going to tell them they are a dirt bag for performing a legal act in order to try and harvest a deer.
 
#15 ·
Adding to this debate the neighbor is not exactly "harvesting" deer for dinner. He is quite affluent. Does big game hunts in Montana and Alaska. My guess is, unless he is an illusionist, he doesn't "need" this deer to feed his family.

Don't know if that makes any difference....but for some reason it sort of bugs me. It isn't pay to play, it's I own an orchard (among other things), I own lots of property that also happen to be prime deer habitat...so why does he need to bait the deer, when they are quite prevalent all over his land?

Kim
 
#16 ·
I can understand being bothered by it, and having the opinion that its not right....but it doesn't sound like any laws are being broken. If you decide you feel strongly enough about it maybe work towards getting the law changed instead of taking it into your own hands. After all, I wouldn't appreciate my neighbor having his dogs piss all over my tying desk because he thinks what I do for fun is ethically wrong.
 
#18 ·
I don't bait deer but is it sporting to hunt the edge of an alfalfa field or next to an apple orchard?

Maybe he mowed/ sprayed his fields to get rid of noxious weeds. Do you think he purposefully killed all food sources on his land to improve hunting?

Fishing during a hatch? Taking advantage of an animals' feeding patterns. Is it fair to target trout when they are most vulnerable?

Legal and as long as he does not waste meat no issues. So affluent1% landowners like you Kim do not eat meat? Seems an urban dweller trying to impose his belief system on other legal sportsman. ( I am shocked).

Another swinging, bead use thread.

Kim what is your carbon footprint when you drive to your property from Seattle? Are you aware your carbon emitting vehicle is destroying our planet according to Noble Prize winner/ fondler of women Al Gore? Can start another thread.

Not the way I hunt but who am I to judge?
 
#23 ·
I'll be there this weekend, although not on Saturday morning, but certainly Sunday. And can ask the guys who head up the driveway who they are and how they know the owner. My hunch is, though, that he is doing it for himself and/or his son who is in his early 20s. Last year he allowed his nephew, who is in his mid-30s up there and the nephew had a fit because he ran into guys who'd already killed two bucks. The guys were on USFS land, not this neighbor (who thinks he owns the whole mountain), but this nephew went nuts and even stopped at my place to read me the riot act thinking I let them up through my land....so my guess is they want to make sure they get their buck before anyone else.
 
#24 ·
That is why I archery hunt. Too many idiots in the woods here in WA during modern firearms.

Probably the biggest threat to mule deer populations is development ( people building homes) in their wintering areas -not a pile of apples.

Food for thought
 
#29 ·
I gave up hunting years ago, with a healthy desire to not get shot.
So many hunters, so little game.

Another approach to the issue is the subject of apples left on the ground. Now I know that there are a lot of apples left to rot on the ground. But this is a good place for apple maggot breeding. The folks that deal in such matters might be interested in the practice of dumping that many apples in one place.

While I personally do not condone such practice, I realize that the
soul purpose of some folks is to kill an animal for bragging rights.
Some folks make a living selling the opportunity to other folks.
I guess all the ethical morality in the world will not change that.
Those $$$s are just too tempting to pass up.
 
#30 ·
I almost posted something similar on the Stilly gill net issue, but chose to enjoy some popcorn instead :)

I agree with those who have said that it's up to them as long as no laws are being broken (same as treaty fishing). We all feel right about our own ethical standards, and we dismiss what we disagree with as flawed/unethical/immoral/etc. I have hunted deer, birds & fish with various methods, all of which give me a SIGNIFICANTLY unfair advantage over my adversary. We tend to feel better about whatever we are hunting by passing it off as "sporting", but is it really? We are humans with (normally) big brains trying to find & capture an animal with a tiny brain and a bunch of natural instincts. Since we know what those instincts are, we know exactly what to do to find said animal. It doesn't matter if you are using a fly rod & fly, a $3,000 rifle setup or a bow - we still win! If you pretend you are in the civil war and use a muzzle loader, you are cheating just a little less, but still have a massive advantage :)

We're all out hunting & fishing for recreation - most of us don't NEED the meat, so we're just killing (or catching & releasing) for fun. It's not up to me to decide who's method of fun us acceptable, as long as they aren't breaking any laws or endangering me or somebody else. I'm personally not a fan of fishing from a boat with down-riggers waiting for a salmon to pop my line off, but I'm not going to claim that people who enjoy that style of fishing are unethical. I don't agree with the apple dumping, but to others' points - a deer will be tagged either way, so the impact is the same.
 
#31 ·
Call me old school or an Indian but this is a far cry from hunting, it shows a lack of respect to the animal being hunted. If one can't match knowledge, experience and persistence to a game animal using fair chase methods, then IMO they don't deserve it.

What's even more bothersome is this person is teaching the 20yr old absolutely nothing about hunting.... it's similar to the fast food mentality, I want it here, like this and right now.

This is why people can't or don't understand those that do hunt, what a disgrace.
 
#32 ·
So would you prefer they drive to Safeway and purchase meat that has been shown just as little respect in the slaughter house?

All this talk of sport, ethics, respect....bottom line animals die and people eat them. As long as laws are followed correctly, what difference does it make how they die? You think a bullet to the chest feels better to a deer if its delivered in what some people consider a more sporting fashion?

Call me old school or an Indian but this is a far cry from hunting, it shows a lack of respect to the animal being hunted. If one can't match knowledge, experience and persistence to a game animal using fair chase methods, then IMO they don't deserve it.

What's even more bothersome is this person is teaching the 20yr old absolutely nothing about hunting.... it's similar to the fast food mentality, I want it here, like this and right now.

This is why people can't or don't understand those that do hunt, what a disgrace.
 
#36 ·
Sorry to burst your bubble xdog, but I have an easement to go on his land (negotiated because he made a HUGE mistake when he subdivided and forgot to get an easement then threatened to sue me if he didn't get one...). And again, sorry to deflate your response, but I think I said what he was doing was legal, I know that. What I was curious about is whether it seemed similar to dynamite in a fish pond, given the food scarcity issues this year for deer. So my friend, before you get cranky, read my first post. Just because baiting for deer is legal doesn't mean it should be. There are many states where it isn't so finding similarities in a discussion is, frankly, legitimate.

AND, by the way, I am not assuming anything about this gentleman. He has told me specifically he does not eat the game he hunts in Montana and Alaska and he does NOT hunt here. His son, his relatives, and his "accounts" as he calls them, do. His son told me he also doesn't eat the meat. It's about trophies for them. Just repeating what he told me.

And I have no intent on "harassing" as you called it anyone. This gentlemen's friends have left carcasses in my driveway, .22 shells near my barn, shot through my house when it was in construction (despite the fact the easement specifically says no shooting nor arrows nor...on my property), have driven ATVs all over my fields. And to all of that, all I have ever done has emailed him to ask him to restrain his friends etc.

Harassment? Hmmmmmm. Me thinks he and his friends are harassing me, but that is a whole other story.

Thanks for your input.
 
#41 ·
Sorry to burst your bubble xdog, but I have an easement to go on his land (negotiated because he made a HUGE mistake when he subdivided and forgot to get an easement then threatened to sue me if he didn't get one...). And again, sorry to deflate your response, but I think I said what he was doing was legal, I know that. What I was curious about is whether it seemed similar to dynamite in a fish pond, given the food scarcity issues this year for deer. So my friend, before you get cranky, read my first post. Just because baiting for deer is legal doesn't mean it should be. There are many states where it isn't so finding similarities in a discussion is, frankly, legitimate......
You aren't bursting my bubble or deflating my response but thank you for the out reach of concern.

You failed to see my point that baiting for deer is a legal pursuable activity while "dynamiting fish" clearly is not and as such the two are in no way similar.

If my response has given you the impression that I am cranky it is likely in part that the chief reason baiting isn't legal in many states (including Washington for Bear) it is because a small group of anti hunters and non hunters the vast majority of which have never have not, nor ever will spend a single day hunting in thier lives that no little or no knowledge about wildlife. People that havent donated a single dollar or moment of thier life to benefit wildlife or conservation. People that dont have the slightest clue of what hunting is or is not. These are the well meaning folks come up with misaligned, pious ideas of what "they" think is right or wrong regarding hunting and decide its prudent to impose those ideas on hunters and wildlife managers by supporting and getting laws enacted that make them feel warm and fuzzy about how well Bambi sleeps at night.

You sound a lot like one of those people......
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top