RE: Lake Lenore Poachers

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by miyawaki, Jul 28, 2013.

  1. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

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    I thought he just waited around watching bobbers all day.


    Go Sox,
    cds
     
  2. 10incher

    10incher Active Member

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    Illegally kept dead fish = Death

    Forget to pinch your barb = Death

    As someone who has honestly forgotten to pinch, I'm thinking this might be a wee tad disproportionate. I could understand a good hobble-ing though ;)

    I've mentioned before that I try to pinch my barbs in a way that leaves them a little fat. But I actually only do this when I "meat fish" for salmon. In Ca. the game wardens will run a cotton ball over your pinch. If it snags too much cotton you might get in trouble. I've tested my pinches with a cotton ball for this very reason.

    I think a good punishment would be 1) permanent forfeiture of any and all fishing tackle and vehicles used to perpetrate the crime. 2) assess the damage and charge poachers the full cost. As in: You kept an illegal fish = That fish must be replaced. Which means the cost of rearing/raising to size and the cost to have an employee in a fish truck drive it to the watershed. 3) Loss of fishing privileges for a number of years to be determined by the severity of your crime. 4) Mandatory jail time of five days for every dead fish. Probation for non 'dead fish' related crimes. 5) A flat fine of $250 for any violation plus another $250 for every dead fish.

    I think these penalties push the edge, but not so far that you couldn't get honest folks to agree with them. And imagine what it would mean to the poachers in the OP!
     
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  3. Jamie Wilson

    Jamie Wilson Active Member

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    The way it stands now - the "punishment" is bull shit and there is absolutely no deterring factor - so it never stops
     
  4. David Loy

    David Loy Senior Moment

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    "Reeling in Russia" (book) revealed how F'd up the system is over there, and provides insight into these guys mindset. Completely lawless when it comes to resource management. Gotta slap them hard to get their attention. I doubt this did the trick.
     
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  5. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

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    I think you are close to getting it here. People generally vuilate laws that do not fit into their general belief systems/ ethics. Punishments rarely come into play as deterrants unless they truly think that they may get caught. Most people don't commit crimes because of their own values.

    Think for a moment about how harsh dui punishments are, yet people drive drunk all the time. They don't believe they'll get caught and they don't think that they are hurting anyone by driving. So the car gets home and no one gets hurt, most of the time.

    In this case the poachers were likely behaving within their own social norms. They also didn't think they'd be caught. Do any of you actually think for 1 moment that they researched the potential punishment?

    Go Sox,
    cds
     
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  6. shadowcast

    shadowcast Member

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    Studies have shown that harsher penalties don't deter crime because criminals are rarely aware of the laws and don't plan on getting caught. Ok...so what. The penalty still has to be commensurate with the crime. Would you rather we lash each buttock and sent them on their way with a lollipop? What's your point?
     
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  7. bennysbuddy

    bennysbuddy the sultan of swing

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    How about we deport them to russia ,where this type of behavior is acceptable ?
     
  8. Patrick Allen

    Patrick Allen Active Member

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    I think we all are reacting over the top (self included) because this is something we all care deeply about. In reality if these guys stole say 700 snickers bars the penalty would have probably been the same. The judge looked at this probably like he looks at the 20 other cases of petty non violent crime he sees every day.
     
  9. Vladimir Steblina

    Vladimir Steblina Retired Forester...now fishing instead of working

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    Seventy plus years of Communism really did a number on Russia environmentally. Not to mention the impact on the people. When I was there in 1976 and 1996 it was strictly survival mode for the people. Then you would see the Soviet environmental practices and anything like poaching was really small potatoes in the scheme of things.

    When I came to this country in 1956 there was a great emphasis on teaching me American history and values. I was even sent to a speech therapist in public school to learn to pronounce English words correctly.

    These days we assume that everybody is just like US. They're NOT. They may have the same hopes and dreams, but the path to getting there is based on their 'home" culture.

    Most of those cultures do not operate like this one. So we really should not be surprised by events such as this. In my more cynical moments I just chalk it up to the benefits of cultural diversity.
     
  10. David Loy

    David Loy Senior Moment

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    Yes, in a way. The government officials in charge of the resource are lining their pockets, across the board. You'd be in trouble if you didn't pay the graft. Keep in mind these "officials" are thousands of miles from Moscow, actually and/or figuratively. And that the government is broke and many employees aren't getting paid any other way. There is zero attempt to clean up waste areas or perpetuate fisheries. Kamchatka is only important because of incoming dollars, and that even begrudgingly as I understand it.

    Good points Vladimir. I'll venture that things went downhill since 1956 (probably after getting better in the 60s). I would imagine people cared about things in the 50s through the 70s but are disillusioned now. But, I wasn't there and have only read this book.
     
  11. Eric Denny

    Eric Denny Summer is over but I'm still fishing!!

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    I like that idea think its the best one yet!!!
     
  12. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

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    You are sooooo insennnnsitive ;)
     
  13. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

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    You know what my point is. In fact, you reiterated it. Harsher penalties have limitted effectiveness in preventing most crimes.

    Now there is more than 1 reason we punish crimes. Justice is one reason we do. If you feel that the punishment in this case does not represent justice, I'm not gonna argue. It may feel good to you, the victim, to know that they will recieve a harsher penalty (if that was the case). Making a victim feel better has vaue too. There are other reasons we punish crimes as well.

    I just feel that it's important not to fall into the trap of believing that harsher punishments will deter these sorts of crimes.

    If it were up to me the punishment would be derived by factoring in the cost to society per fish, the cost of enforcement and by taking away the "tools of the trade". I would like to see a harsher penalty as well, but not because I think the harshness of the penalty would play any role in a poachers thought process as to whether to comitt the crime.

    4-4 (10),
    cds
     
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  14. bennysbuddy

    bennysbuddy the sultan of swing

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    These days we assume that everybody is just like US. They're NOT. They may have the same hopes and dreams, but the path to getting there is based on their 'home" culture.

    maybe they should read the rule book,and if they don't like the rules they should go back to where they came from!!! You are only allowed to steal your way to the top if you are CEO everybody else is supose to work for their living thats the American way
     
  15. bennysbuddy

    bennysbuddy the sultan of swing

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    "Dead people don't become repeat offenders"..... Now thats insensitive.
     
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