Restricting Guides Services on Some Rivers?

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by dryflylarry, Feb 28, 2011.

  1. Bob Triggs

    Bob Triggs Stop Killing Wild Steelhead!

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    I dont see any "guide hating" here. just a reasonable question posed to limit the impacts of commercial guiding on fragile runs of fish.
     
  2. jeff bandy

    jeff bandy Make my day

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    How about this idea. Getting a float permit for a river. Might work like this. You stop by to pick up your permit no more than say 48 hours before hand. It's a hard plastic tag you hang on your boat. Must be returned the next day or a fine. There would be a limit on how many were issued for each day. Different color for each day of the week.

    The guides would have a separate tag and limit per day on this same river. If your a guide. You must carry a Washington state guide lic. This you can only get if you live in the state. No more out of state guides flooding in during the high season. If your a guide and take one of the public permits, loss of guide lic.

    I know there are tons of ways to make this sound like a bad idea. And I'm sure no one will like this idea. But, if you stop and think about it for just a second..... It will lower/spread out the pressure on the rivers. It will insure a uncrowded day for you and your customers. It will restrict the number of guilds in competition for a limited resource. Thus allowing guilds to make a living.

    LETS TRY THIS, IF YOU DON'T HAVE SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE TO SAY. DON'T SAY ANYTHING!!!

    Saying it's a bad idea without offering a alternative is not constructive.
     
  3. ryfly

    ryfly Addicted to flyfishing

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    Therfore only those who can afford a guide are able to fish that river? How nice to be economically selective and in most cases eliminate those who live in the area from actually being able to fish the river in their backyard.
     
  4. Don Freeman

    Don Freeman Free Man

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    Applied judiciously, this is a promising experiment. The regulations could be adjusted for each drainage with special consideration for fragile populations, timing of native runs, requiring the harvest of pre-spawn hatchery fish, and open to the public when and if impact on wild escapement is low.

    It is certainly easier to monitor the actions of a limited number of guides who demonstrate ethics and compliance with regulations than unlimited access, especially considering the strained resources for enforcement. This not a new concept in the west, rivers like the Rogue and Deschutes are limited to numbers of guides licensed, river running is by lottery, and fishing from boats prohibited. There was a lot of noise when these changes were made, but people now accept the status quo, and these resources have maintained or improved in quality of experience.
     
  5. wolverine

    wolverine Member

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    Guide only water? Sure. Put them all on the Sammamish Slough.
     
  6. Dustin Bise

    Dustin Bise Active Member

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    I promise you I will poach the first "guide only river"

    fuck the idea that you have to be able to afford to pay a guide to go fish somewhere.

    Unless of course the guides were "free" and a lottery system was put inplace.


    In fact, I think a lottery system might be the best for the steelhead rivers, like there is for wilderness use.
     
  7. dryflylarry

    dryflylarry "Chasing Riseforms"

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    Guides seem to cater to mostly the "well to do" don't they? I don't like that concept... leaves out retired guys like me.
     
  8. Brett Angel

    Brett Angel Member

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    If the availability of a public resource is being limited by a for-profit group these groups should be limited/regulated. The general public should not have to compete for access to a public resource with a for-profit group.

    Guide only rivers? Would these guides be required to pay more into the system for a guide license? Required to contribute to conservation groups? Maintain boat launches and all other public access resources? Would their licenses fees etc cover the cost to maintain the hatchery programs on these rivers? Who would manage/regulate these rivers and guides? The same people currently manage and regulate the rivers? Etc? Etc? Etc? Etc?
     
  9. Rob Ast

    Rob Ast Active Member

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    I think this is actually a very good solution to limit over-use of a public resource. Similar to hunting licenses currently. There could be an online registration system similar to the campground system with a first-come first-served priority, or some kind of lottery (perhaps for the more desired dates).
     
  10. Derek Young

    Derek Young Emerging Rivers Guide Services

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    You see what you did there?
     
  11. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    Very interesting Mr. Bandy. I wonder if this could work and have some flexibility applied to standards based on the fish populations/run strength for various waters. I'm not anti-guide by any means, although as a humble single income family I think I'm less capable, fiscally, of hiring a guide. I respect that those that I have met or shared time on the water with, steelhead and trout systems, are trying hard to make a living. I admire their ethics, stewardship to the resouces and such. I know that there may be some that are just in it for a buck, but I don't think any of the ones I've met fit that mold.

    Management could be challenging because rather than limit the number of boats on a river, wouldn't you more likely be limiting the number of boats on each stretch of a river? You would not want to be boat number 15 of 15 boats allowed on a whole river and find that the other 14 are in front of you. (Some individual trip planning can prevent this to some degree, but not entirely because you don't know where anyone else is going for sure.)

    Permitting systems are in use on a lot of river systems for recreational use already. What are some experiences with those systems, do they keep down the crowds, the litter, the camping pressure? How many get left out in the cold by not getting access to these public waters?

    Balancing use so that recreational anglers and guides can find a way to make this work and reduce pressure on fish stocks could be good. Of course I think that it might be too complex a process for any enforcement agency to embrace and implement. I also think that each system should be recognized as having a different tolerable threashold for pressure. How many boats/anglers is that? Would bank anglers have to be considered in this system too, getting tags as well?

    I've never participated in any beat system (except for the Project Healing Waters Two Fly Tournament...) or permit system for river usage. I don't know much about them but if there is a way to balance all the players in the game then perhaps there is some benefit in such a system. I look forward to reading more!
     
  12. Bob Jones

    Bob Jones Still truckless now farther away

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    We all need to concider the survival of the fish. That means that we have to stop being selfish and greedy and work together, determine whhat will help the fish survive and make that iinto law. THen work togeather to stop poaching, clean up the lakes and streams and maybe even stop fishin some streams some years. There are some ideas suggested that seem good and others worth trying but we need to START NOW and work togeather. I like the Deschutes system having fished it for years with the limits and not fishing from a floating device but there are other things mentioned here that sound good too.THe Guides still seam to get a fair amount of business too and we've got to leave them some chance to make a living and help improve the fishing too. !! happy fishing!! or not
     
  13. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

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    Eliminate nymphing or at least lead. They'd be fewer guides rowing clients into fish.

    Go Sox,
    cds
     
  14. dryflylarry

    dryflylarry "Chasing Riseforms"

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    I like this idea among others. I like Jeff's proposals, Mumbles concerns, and I like Bob Jones idea of closing a river. I could stand a river closing for one year... what the heck. Anything helps. Don't get me wrong, I would thoroughly enjoy a day on the river with a guide... a place that wasn't crowded of course and pounded to death!
     
  15. Steve Call

    Steve Call Active Member

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    Managing, monitoring and enforcement would be a challenge. I think the Deschutes River program of no fishing from boats does more to level the playing field.

    Lets faced it there are at least three classes of fishermen:
    1) those that can afford to hire a guide to take them on a river in a boat;
    2) those that can afford there own boat which gives them access to the same water as a guide; and,
    3) those that can't afford 1 or 2 and fish from the bank and have limited access to fishing water. In terms of numbers, this is the largest group of anglers.



    This discussions seems to be about groups 1 and 2.