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Restricting Guides Services on Some Rivers?

13K views 167 replies 64 participants last post by  isaacfab 
#1 ·
I fish around in some other states for trout. The best fishing I have found is where guide service is not permitted on the river. The fishing is fabulous. (I don’t know where there are many “No Guides Permitted” rivers, but haven’t researched it) So, I have come to the conclusion that guide services impact rivers quite negatively because of the tremendous fishing pressures put on the rivers. I think this rule should be applied on more rivers to enhance the fishing quality. What say you? What is your opinion or have you thought of this much before? I don’t expect to be popular after this post….
 
#101 ·
Pretty much every river in Alaska has limited entry for guides, the exceptions are on state land except the Kenai. Still there is a ton (way to much) of guide pressure mostly because a lot of lodges were grandfathered in before ANILCA. A couple of rivers only have one or two permitted guides though, and there are no guide days on the kenai.
 
#106 ·
How about getting the state to implement statewide wild steelhead release first. I like the no fishing from a floating devise on selected rivers or selected times of year but I don't see it happening in the near future.
 
#109 ·
Wow, guys, Evan nailed it with the South Park post. In 1966, when a my group of plebes at a military academy was enduring our third round of through the roof hazing for the day, Pat Conroy (yeah, that one) walked into the room, smiled at us and said "fellas, relax this is college". Great advice (although the hazing from everyone else continued unabated). Fellas, this is fishing, something we are all passionate about. And it is not the guides or the boats screwing up the resource. It is the decades of abuse and neglect, the dams, the loss of habitat through road building, logging, you name it, and the commercial fishing. We need to focus our frustration, get together, then reach out to all of our clubs and fishermen in other states. You know, one of the thing that stands out to me in this thread is that Bob Trigg, a professional guide, has just proved once again his love of not only fishing, but also the resource and conservation.
 
#112 ·
How ironic...(he thought as as read the last post).....
 
#113 ·
As usual to a thread that gets this long this quick that there is so much junk in it that anybody in their right mind would just not bother with it. I tried to read some of this but it doesn't make any sense. I scanned through the first 5 pages but skipped the rest because you are all repeating what was said on the first two pages.

I was going to comment on the way it is here in Montana. But none of you would pay any attention to it so I didn't.
 
#115 ·
I love how you guys took an interesting discussion about guide services on the rivers and made it out to be the same insane religious rant about swinging vs nymphing.

Honestly - you should get TWO nymph vs swing manifesto rants a year on this site - any more and you're banned.
 
#116 ·
I love how you guys took an interesting discussion about guide services on the rivers and made it out to be the same insane religious rant about swinging vs nymphing.

Honestly - you should get TWO nymph vs swing manifesto rants a year on this site - any more and you're banned.
He was talking about guides who bead. Be nice, or I'll sic the kids on you with a sharpie next time you crash on my couch.
:rofl:

Golfman, I got your PM. Thanks, man. I'll talk to you tonight.
 
#117 ·
Golfman, I'll nymph on the go between swinging spots. When I arrive at spots I think are good swining water I don't want to nymph it, I want to swing. I'm giving up nothing as I think I'm balancing both and using the right technique for the right type of water. Those who swing only can think less of me, I can deal with that. I likely would not approve of 100% of anyone's life choices, but that is not my business just like how I legally fish is not your business.

I gave up gear fishing with eggs, plugs and all that stuff. That meant choosing a far, holy freaking shit, far less productive method. I don't have the time to dedicate to fishing steelhead hardcore and want to catch fish. Nyphing means I can still fish on the move becaus swinging a fly on the float is somthing I have tried but it does not seem to work productively. I want to catch fish. When they come on a nymph in nymphing water then I have a good feeling about what I've done. When I hook one on the swing I have the same feeling of satisfaction. When I'm jaded and have tailed thousands, hundreds or dozens of fish I might change my tune and forego the craft and swing only at places I can hike into. I like boats too, why not enjoy my love of boats, fishing on the move and fishing from the bar all in the same outing? I don't think a nymph is anything but fly gear and since that is my perception then that is the reality and you can have your own view. I don't think a dick nite is fly gear.

I do know that my spey rod can successfully put the below object into play, with a 6" long heavy bead head pink MOAL. I found this derelect gear on a river bank and figured after working a run on the swing that I'd mess around. Tossed it to the seam just fine. Sucker measures about 6" in lenght and as big around as a golf ball.
View attachment 39526

I'll see you out on the water again. You'll see me. Maybe we chat it up, maybe I'm off your Christmas Card List. Only time will tell how that all works out. Tight lines swinger!
 
#119 ·
While I speak only on behalf of our shop, I believe my observations and values align with many other guide services and outfitters. The guide business has changed a great deal, particularly over the past 5 to 7 years. Modern day guide trips place much more emphasis on teaching and less emphasis on putting big numbers of fish in the boat (and taking photos of people holding fish); and people don’t want to only learn how to catch fish. They want to learn about the watershed, the fish and wildlife in the ecosystem, potential threats to the fishery and ways they can join the conservation effort.
A client’s day on the river is measured as an overall experience. There are many factors that contribute to this experience: weather, equipment, interactions with other anglers on the river, instruction, fishing, and logistics. Some of these factors are within human control, others are not. The ironic thing is that the items that are within human control not only affect the client experience in our guide boat, but also the experience of ALL other anglers that we share the river with. We have NEVER put 10 boats on any section of any water and never will – as it ruins the experience for not just those in our boats, but others on the river, too. We try to give bank anglers and other boats plenty of room and maintain a friendly dialogue. When we see wildlife or something else that is noteworthy including the fishing, we share it with our clients and, often times, anyone else in the vicinity. We aren’t boisterous on the river, and are working towards placing less emphasis on the number of fish caught being the measure of a successful day on the water – especially for Steelhead.
With the above being said, I am not opposed to restrictions being placed on certain watersheds to preserve the experience and/or protect a declining fishery. I am, however, opposed to holding guides to a different standard than the fishing public – and vice versa. We have always supported the WDFW and always will. We provide comments when asked and understand that some things that may be a priority for us may not be for the majority, or simply not feasible given funding or enforcement. As many people have stated on here, responsible guides are stewards to the watershed and actually enhance the overall experience for many. I am also opposed to making critical decisions like this without a thorough understanding of FACTS. Evan, we have discussed this before and have maintained a respectful dialogue. The weekend you referenced on the Klickitat happened to be a weekend that a large fly club hosted an outing. The middle 3 weeks of October on the Klickitat is the equivalent of the Salmon fly hatch on any popular trout river. There were very few boats on the river on weekdays, and traffic lightened up significantly by November. Is it fair to base a general ruling on 3 Saturdays in a given month? I do not believe a wade fishing only restriction on the Klickitat would have the desired effect of reducing pressure that many of you think. I believe much of the water on this river can be reached with a switch rod (we saw MANY more of this year) or spinning rods – and Supermuddler brought up a great point on wading over redds.
Another thing I want to touch on is the days that guides go out and put up the huge numbers that many people hear about and some find offensive are often days that guides are actually “buddy” fishing. You hardcore guys on here, think about your best days of fishing – was one of your “guide buddies” along? I bring this up because these days are not necessarily the product of a commercial trip and would still happen even with restrictions in place. So speaking to FACTS, there is the traffic issue impacting the quality of experience – now how about the health of the fishery? By a large consensus, the Yakima River is fishing better today than it was 10 years ago. In speaking to our customers and our guides, numbers and average size of fish are up – and these are not moldy one eyed torpedoes – we’re talking fat healthy trout with sharp fins and sparkly eyes. I think a lot of this can be attributed to better C&R practices. We have graduated from the digital camera boom where every 14” trout that was caught had to be photographed. This is a great example of how educating the fishing public worked. Nearly every angler out there can recite the basic “Safe Catch and Release guidelines”. Awareness has been achieved and it was through joint efforts of fly shops, fly clubs, guides, government agencies, and conservation groups. The health of a fishery and negative impact due to pressure really takes on a different meaning when hatchery steelhead come into the equation. Again, we support the WDFW decisions and efforts and abide by the rules regarding hatchery fish and wild fish. The rules that are implemented were not made up, they are based on science/facts – and when the escapement numbers are met and harvest quotas are reached, the season opens and closes. If pressure is jeopardizing the survival of a fishery, then we would want to be first in line to restrict it – as would other guides and outfitters who are in this business because they love fishing and have the DEEPEST respect for the fish!

We try to give as much information as we can to bring people success in their fishing. Many are very grateful for that, others get upset because it’s sacred information that one should pay their dues to learn. This dilemma is no different than this internet site. What gets overlooked in these situations and issues is that our success, hence our clients’ enjoyment, is the result of a positive experience on the river, which is aligned with ALL OTHER anglers on the river. For all the right reasons, we bring young people into this business and try to impress upon them that the success of a fishing day is never based solely on the number of fish they catch, but on the outcome of the days’ total experience. I’m not saying we are perfect or better than anyone else. We have had our share of problems. Whenever we become aware of a negative interaction involving one of our guys, we try to gather as many facts as we can and turn it into an educational opportunity. We are very proud of our fly shop and guide team. They work their butts off in this business, certainly not because of the money; but because they love the sport and have a passion for sharing it. Our philosophy on fly fishing is the opposite of the traditional 1950’s Ted Trueblood photo of forty trout strung up between two trees and two smiling men decked out in camp flannel. We seek pictures of smiling people before and after the outing without the safari kill. Our clients leave with rich memories that transcend fishing and who are smarter about the environment and much better equipped to refuse to accept that tomorrow’s resource is inferior to today’s. And when our clients feel that way, every other angler who was on the river that day shared the experience. If you've got anything to add, please send a PM. We'd love to hear from you.

Steve J
Red's Fly Shop
 
#122 ·
I am, however, opposed to holding guides to a different standard than the fishing public - and vice versa.
Steve J
Red's Fly Shop
Steve,

While I agree with most of what you write, I don't agree with your comment in quotes. Whether you want to accept it or not, guides are held to a higher standard...and should be...if not for the resource then for displaying professional business standards and practices. It reminds me of Charles Barkley's infamous remark about not being a role model. He didn't want to accept that the public was watching his behavior on and off the court and emulating it. Same thing with guides. They are in the public eye an like it or not, should be held to a higher standard than the general public...as far as showing proper respect, etiquette, safe boating practices, proper release techniques and a host of other concepts. Yeah, it may not be fair but then again, guides have a better view than any stiff working in an office. :rofl:

You don't post often but when you do, it is generally well received. Good luck on your March 26th event.
 
#127 ·
I have to say that fly fishing guides are much different then bait/spin fishing guides. Case in point: I was in charge of booking a trip for our chefs at work to go out on the river with a guide and do some bait/spin fishing. I called tons of people. I called local shops to get numbers of good guides and also looked on the web. I had to present a costing sheet to the president so I kept detaield notes of what the said and what they offered. One common theme is that they said "yup, we can get you into some fish". Some of the chefs truely thought that it must be true, not understanding what fishing really is.

So, at the end of the day.... we decided to go with.... a fly fishing guide! Great experiance and great learning. We had some bites but ddint bring any to hand and that was ok because the vast knowledge we got from the guide and the fact that he TAUGHT us stuff was well worth it.

And funny thing.... all the bait/spin guides were charging 150-180 per person while the fly guides were charging 300-480. Big price difference but I must say well worth it.
 
#128 ·
Good choice Chef,

You don't teach culinary students how to cook scrambled eggs when they should be learning how to make a suffle...you get what you pay for!
 
#129 ·
I should have better clarified the point that Ringlee and BDD comment to. I was referring to regulations - not standards of conduct and behavior. We hope people do look to us as role models and notify us when issues arise. That's the way problems get fixed and services improve.

Steve J.
Red's Fly Shop
 
#130 ·
Wow,

Thanks for trying to put me out of business, (I am trying to be civil). That being said.

I was a Trout Guide for a number of years, on rivers such as the Madison, South Fork of the Snake, the Henry's Fork, and all of Yellowstone National Park.

Here's some questions for you.

1. How many people have you taught to fly fish in a year? I am talking BRAND NEW FISHERMAN. My record is right around 120 BRAND NEW that I taught to fly fish, through e-mails I know many people are still trying to keep it up.

2. How many people in a year have you taught about conservation issues, stream access laws etc. Again my record is over 200 people, ONE ON ONE, or TWO ON ONE, not in a group lecture.

3. How many people have you got to donate to a conservation organization such as the Henry's Fork Foundation or TU? I asked EVERY Single client of mine to donate at the end of the day. Thats after they already ponyied up close to $800 for a day with me. Many of them gave healthy donations.

4. How many fish have you seen killed, by Honky Tossin guys, with HUGE Treble hooks on trout, and then they rip the jaw halfway off to get the hook out. How many by fly fisherman? I haven't kept count, but I have seen plenty of jaws messed up by trebles. I did all BARBLESS C&R with clients, never a problem, with rubber bottomed nets.

5. How many jet boaters doing the above Honky Tossin (aka spin fishing) have you almost got run over by, How many Drift Boats have almost ran you over? I kept count on that one, its 12 on my first and 1 on the second, the drift boat was my own boat too.....

6. How much litter have you seen thrown out by guides? How many times have you seen them picking up everysingle bit of trash on the river. Again 0 for the first one, and two many to count on the second. If our waterways are dirty, trashy, etc, PEOPLE DON'T want to fish. We keep the rivers CLEAN.

I HAVE NEVER FISHED A RIVER THAT WAS WORSE OFF BY FLY FISHING GUIDES.

States such as Montana, Idaho etc, have use days that limit amount of guides on the water, I have no problem with that. Just don't kill my lively hood because You can't catch fish.

But I bet if you called a shop, they could hook you up with at guide for the day, And you could probably catch some trout.
 
#131 ·
Wow,

Thanks for trying to put me out of business, (I am trying to be civil). That being said.

I was a Trout Guide for a number of years, on rivers such as the Madison, South Fork of the Snake, the Henry's Fork, and all of Yellowstone National Park.

Here's some questions for you.

1. How many people have you taught to fly fish in a year? I am talking BRAND NEW FISHERMAN. My record is right around 120 BRAND NEW that I taught to fly fish, through e-mails I know many people are still trying to keep it up.

2. How many people in a year have you taught about conservation issues, stream access laws etc. Again my record is over 200 people, ONE ON ONE, or TWO ON ONE, not in a group lecture.

3. How many people have you got to donate to a conservation organization such as the Henry's Fork Foundation or TU? I asked EVERY Single client of mine to donate at the end of the day. Thats after they already ponyied up close to $800 for a day with me. Many of them gave healthy donations.

4. How many fish have you seen killed, by Honky Tossin guys, with HUGE Treble hooks on trout, and then they rip the jaw halfway off to get the hook out. How many by fly fisherman? I haven't kept count, but I have seen plenty of jaws messed up by trebles. I did all BARBLESS C&R with clients, never a problem, with rubber bottomed nets.

5. How many jet boaters doing the above Honky Tossin (aka spin fishing) have you almost got run over by, How many Drift Boats have almost ran you over? I kept count on that one, its 12 on my first and 1 on the second, the drift boat was my own boat too.....

6. How much litter have you seen thrown out by guides? How many times have you seen them picking up everysingle bit of trash on the river. Again 0 for the first one, and two many to count on the second. If our waterways are dirty, trashy, etc, PEOPLE DON'T want to fish. We keep the rivers CLEAN.

I HAVE NEVER FISHED A RIVER THAT WAS WORSE OFF BY FLY FISHING GUIDES.

States such as Montana, Idaho etc, have use days that limit amount of guides on the water, I have no problem with that. Just don't kill my lively hood because You can't catch fish.

But I bet if you called a shop, they could hook you up with at guide for the day, And you could probably catch some trout.
This is a just a conversation, and I don't think that the intent of the OP was to talk about the SF or HF or YNP. All are well regulated which is very important and the point of this discussion. If you look to other states without licensure requirements the scene changes, and some rivers are negatively impacted. The areas you list are shining examples of good regulation and conservation by outfitters/guides and conservation groups as well as recreational users.
 
#133 ·
I read almost all of it.
Looks like most people think the guide industry needs some regulations and restriction. I AGREE. Also looks like people think that fish need some more protection. I AGREE.
That's awesome.
Maybe instead of a discussion about how to change the regs in this regard, refocus on the goals of changing the regs.
ie, less people on the water, less fish hooked per person, more places where fish are safe from angling pressure.
Once we figure out what we want achieved, then we can think about how.
 
#135 ·
Original Post was:

I fish around in some other states for trout. The best fishing I have found is where guide service is not permitted on the river. The fishing is fabulous. (I don't know where there are many "No Guides Permitted" rivers, but haven't researched it) So, I have come to the conclusion that guide services impact rivers quite negatively because of the tremendous fishing pressures put on the rivers. I think this rule should be applied on more rivers to enhance the fishing quality. What say you? What is your opinion or have you thought of this much before? I don't expect to be popular after this post….

I Fish around in some other states for Trout:

I took this to Be, Idaho, maybe Montana

The best fishing I have found is where guide service is not permitted on the river. The fishing is fabulous. (I don't know where there are many "No Guides Permitted" rivers, but haven't researched it) So, I have come to the conclusion that guide services impact rivers quite negatively because of the tremendous fishing pressures put on the rivers.

I guided many rivers in in ID and MT. YES our FISHING IS FANTASTIC. And guides are on about every single river here. So his above statement about negative impacts is untrue.

What say you?

My opinions were written ABOUT TROUT, as he was asking. Not the OP, you guys swung it that way. (No pun intended) Steelhead, are trout, but in my opinion a different game entirely than fishing for browns, cutties etc.
 
#137 ·
I think that the input from Jeff, Steve, Derek, Jim and South Fork show me what I think I see on the rivers. Guides are very talented, articulate folks that know their industry well. They seem to care for it, because it is their chosen profession, but also because they just give a shit about what is going on out there. Are there some guides that don't hold these high standards? I bet there are. But overall, I don't think the guides are the problem. Guided pressure on rivers is greater as more rivers close and more anglers explore the outdoors. Angling pressure is doing the same thing. More anglers are wading too. The problem with the bucket empty of fish is not because of the guides. It is not from the recrational anglers. It is not because of lead. It is not becasue of beads. It is not because of treble hooks. It is not because of barbs. It is not because of knotted nets. It is not because of boats. It is not because of tribal netting. It is not because of commercial netting. It is not because of garbage. It is not because of hazardous waste. It is not because of overdevelopment. It is because of all of these thing each being a drop or two in that bucket. The collective damage is done. When the hell does the collective effort for recovery begin? Sorry, I'm not in a very good mood today, all this bashing and bitching has spoiled my breakfast and at the end of it all we still find a bunch of folks trying to justify the how and why they do what they do, all the while blaming anyone who does not do it the way they do. Time for us to grow up or shut up. The fish can't do it for themselves, collectively we have all seen to that. Their fate is in our actions, or lack thereof.
 
#139 ·
I fish around in some other states for trout. The best fishing I have found is where guide service is not permitted on the river. QUOTE]

I am not going to read 10 pages to find out the answer to this question, I want you to name the rivers you have fished that do not permit guiding in the lower 48 that have such remarkably better fishing.
Once you have sputtered and spat trying to answer this question, then we can visit the idea that you have some sort of resentment at people that do as much to further the resource as anyone else that fishes and your premise is mired in this pure hogwash.
 
#140 ·
Let’s see…. If I was a guide, I would try to put people and as many people onto some trout as much as I possibly could, especially to enhance my money making opportunity for future trips through “word of mouth” or whatever. The main goal is to put people on fish and catch fish, and, the more fish the better. Perhaps this is not true for all guides, but, I would say quite a few. I respect the guides comments that posted on here and everyone else. I think most care about the resource. I think there were a lot of good ideas and thoughts regarding the pressure on our resource. My question, for Steve J, and maybe other large outfitters relates to the “10 boat” a day idea. You say you don’t put 10 boats a day on any “one” section of a river. Does that mean you spread them out into 3 different sections of the river? How many boats do you put in per day when the fishing is good? I just would like to know. No offense intended whatsoever. So, if you put in say 3 boats in one section, another guide service does the same, and another, let’s say 5 shops put in the same amount (9 boats)---@(2 fisherman per boat as a minimum). So that amounts to 18 fisherman on 3 different sections of river X 5 other shops = 90 fisherman hitting the water that day. Now, if that is just a morning float, it could also happen in the afternoon as well. That’s a lot of fisherman pounding the river (nooks and crannies) in one day. One day only from a number of guide services. I don’t think the above is that unrealistic is it? I realize we are all guilty of adversely affecting our quality fishing. I suppose I was picking guides as only one aspect of the fishing pressure problem, but I still stick with my first post as one perspective of how guides can adversely impact our rivers. The fact of the matter is there are just too damn many people anymore, and, as I posted a few pages back, I know of a shop that signed up 178 Fly Fishing for Beginners Classes from January to July. You think the rivers are crowded, wait until you hit the beaches this summer chasing coho or pinks with all the new fly fisherman out there! Anyway, we all need to figure this mess out and there seems to be a lot of good ideas thrown out here.
 
#141 ·
Larry, a little bit unrealistic. That would be like memorial day or labor day weekend. And then the stars would have to align as well. Our blue ribbon fishery is not Montana, but is is none the less a good one, with over eleven hundred trout per mile in some stretches. On any given day, realistically in the height of the trout season, two or three boats out a day from all four currently rather active shops/guide services would be considered heavy in my opinion. And Easton to Roza is a LOT and LOT of water. So I think this "pounding" mentality you may have is a scotch exaggerated. I see some frustration is warranted, but put time in and pick a weekday, and rising trout to dries shouldn't be a problem. And remember, 85% of guide clientelle is made up of novice or beginning fly fisherman, or just folks who are there to build their own skills, so even if there were ninety fisherman out one day, how many would be good enough to do any amount of damage on those trout? There are too many variables to list, but in the end, I believe that there will always be a sustainabl, great, fun, and productive C&R fishery right over the hill even with current guide pressure.
 
#142 ·
You have obviously never fished the Madison during the Stonefly hatch where you will easily see upwards of 50 rigs at one takeout ( I once counted 63 trucks with trailers at one well known takeout), or the Bighorn during the PMD hatch when 75 boats fish 13 miles of water. Try the Missouri in May when all of the freestone western Montana streams are blown out. I try not to complain about the crowd when I'm part of it.
 
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