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Restricting Guides Services on Some Rivers?

13K views 167 replies 64 participants last post by  isaacfab 
#1 ·
I fish around in some other states for trout. The best fishing I have found is where guide service is not permitted on the river. The fishing is fabulous. (I don’t know where there are many “No Guides Permitted” rivers, but haven’t researched it) So, I have come to the conclusion that guide services impact rivers quite negatively because of the tremendous fishing pressures put on the rivers. I think this rule should be applied on more rivers to enhance the fishing quality. What say you? What is your opinion or have you thought of this much before? I don’t expect to be popular after this post….
 
#149 ·
Jake,

Going back to your first question about any rivers where guides are not permitted (which is a really good one BTW) the only one I can think of is the SF of the Boise. It is actually a nice river to float and can be pretty lonesome considering how close you are to Boise.

1100 trout per mile on the Yak is in some of the more productive sections in the lower canyon. In other places, the numbers are measured in the hundreds, not thousands. But your point was made.
 
#153 ·
Ok, Ok. I got a little emotionally heated on this one, I usually dont. The simple fact is that I love my job and took this a little personal. So.....Whatever anyones opinion on this issue, post, whatever, Its clear we all care, its clear we all want to help, Its very clear that we all have opinions. I do believe that the majority of guides value our watersheds, as well as the majorty of regular (non-guide) fisherman. I do think that Washington should follow in Oregons footsteps and make it a little more work to get a guide license, not only for the fish, but anyone who hires a guides personal safety. If I pissed ya off...I meant to at the time, but Im better now, so I'm sorry. I will take internet posts for what they are from now on....internet posts.....and wont get all pissy again.....until the next one.:)
 
#155 ·
I was really going to stay out of this but some of the comments made here are really stupid.

For one, people keep saying here that fishing guides should be required to be swiftwater rescue certified. Tell me how a three or four day course is going to make any difference when the Chiat goes down. That's just plain ignorant. I'd bet money that the significant majority of SWRT's couldn't rig a Z-drag two weeks after they completed the course.

I say this as a fully insured, FA, CPR full-time flyfishing outfitter and whitewater guide who saw over 1000 miles last year with much of it on Class IV waters including the MF Salmon at 8.6 ft.

Some guy in waders is not in ANY position to swiftwater rescue anybody.

If you had any significant time running whitewater or rivers for that matter, you would know it takes a significant number of days before it's , "always a good day to swim the river"...and, trust me, it's more than four days. And, I would certainly never, ever do it in waders.

More than anything in this thread, I see a bunch of selfish people who really have no understanding of the significant issues our anadromous fish and watersheds face. This thread has nothing to do with that. It is simply about "MY WATER" and it's crowded...Meoooooow!
 
#156 ·
I was really going to stay out of this but some of the comments made here are really stupid.

For one, people keep saying here that fishing guides should be required to be swiftwater rescue certified. Tell me how a three or four day course is going to make any difference when the Chiat goes down. That's just plain ignorant. I'd bet money that the significant majority of SWRT's couldn't rig a Z-drag two weeks after they completed the course.

I say this as a fully insured, FA, CPR full-time flyfishing outfitter and whitewater guide who saw over 1000 miles last year with much of it on Class IV waters including the MF Salmon at 8.6 ft.

Some guy in waders is not in ANY position to swiftwater rescue anybody.

If you had any significant time running whitewater or rivers for that matter, you would know it takes a significant number of days before it's , "always a good day to swim the river"...and, trust me, it's more than four days. And, I would certainly never, ever do it in waders.

More than anything in this thread, I see a bunch of selfish people who really have no understanding of the significant issues our anadromous fish and watersheds face. This thread has nothing to do with that. It is simply about "MY WATER" and it's crowded...Meoooooow!
:thumb:
 
#157 ·
bro are u seriosuly suggestion that swift water rescue is a worthless skill for person who rows whitewater with clients for a living?

I have been involved in the whitewater community MUCH longer then I have been fishing. I know people who have lost there life to the rivers. There is no good reason to not require a SWR training for guides. I know its not required currently, but I think it should be, especially on rivers with alot of wood or whitewater.

I have really been surprised with the lack of respect flyfishers have for rivers sometimes. Im not saying every river requires a PDF and a helemt 100 percent of the time, but I have seen a lot of rivers where a PDF at the least should be worn, and is not.

I also belive (these are just my opinions) that any guide who is guiding in a wilderness context (no continuous road access, more then 1 hour from a hospital/other medical center) should have at the MINIMUM a WFA, preferably a WFR.

There are alot of situations in washington rivers where a first aid cert is simply NOT going to save the victim. Oh, your client fell and somehow broke his femur? (not likely but entirely possible, esp guiding eldery clients). I sure hope you know how to improvise a traction splint... Also, I w0uld hope that guides are carrying COMPLETE hypothermia gear, esp guiding in the winter. That would be a hypowrap of some sort and a complete set of dry clothing.

All it takes is one fall on a slippery rock and your client is now in a serious threat of hypothermia. Washington Winters FTW.

Would love to here more guides perspective on the idea of first aid and SWR.
 
#158 ·
I have 20 years in medicine, 10 of it in clinical orthopedics. I carry appropriate gear on every trip. We run safety boat and Sat phone when indicated. We run a tight ship; although, it is definitely a gaming ship.

No I am serious and I hear it all the time. I have people ask me frequently to organize a SWR class.

My response is buy a whitewater seasons pass. By the end of the season, they'll be much better river folk than a 4 day class could ever make them. Rarely, do I see anyone follow through or have the dedication to do it though.

What I am saying is that 2 days in a classroom and 2 days on the water does not prepare anyone for when it hits the fan. I hear these fly guides, one especially out of Seattle, spouting off about swiftwater rescue cert and it's all about ego. And, that's the last thing it should ever be about.

If SWRT certification makes someone feel better, whatever. But, just because they learned to toss a throw bag in class doesn't mean they've practiced or repacked it in the last two years. And, if you think that some poor bastard in waders is going to hop in the water and do anyone any good, that's crazy.

Most of the guides I see out there know the waters they guide and their skill set. They do it well and appear to be fairly competent on the waters they guide.

SWR cert has absolutely zero impact whatsoever on an individual's skills as an oarsperson. It's the cart before the horse. Ohhh, you can't read and run but at least you've got SWRT.

But, I'll stick to my last thought and that's, this isn't about anything but "MY WATER" and "it's crowded"....
 
#160 ·
i guess we just hae to disagree on this one. thanks ok.

so when you guide you wear a drysuit/wetsuit instead of waders so that you are able to assist clients if shit hits the fan? Or do you rock the waders, knowing they are not

and saying that taking a SWR is worthless for a guide because he wont learn how to throw a throwbag???? Its all about EGO. while there may be some guides who may take SWF just to sound cool, i think most of them probably are doing it so they are more prepared for there occupation. It certainly does prepare people for when shit hits the fan, at least better then not having it.

At least they will have an idea of what to do, as opposed to a blank stare....

In my experience, it is amazing how much you can recall in a dire situation. Having the knowledge will help you to not panic, even if you have never put it to practical use before. I was the first aid lead for my wilderness crew this summer and had to call on my WFR classes almost a year ago multiple times. Even without alot of first hand experience, the things i learned came back to me and i was able to apply them to the situations.

and its not just for the clients. its for helping other river users as well.


Im not tryin to bust your balls, just discussing these ideas and presenting my opions, thats what a forum is for please dont take it personal.

It sounds like you have your guiding service more togather then most. Having safety boaters is great and i dont think many fishing guides do this.

Are you guiding whitewater, or fly fishing?
 
#161 ·
Not sure that I've read it in this thread yet but how about this:

If the no fishing from a floating device happens, and I'm NOT saying I believe this is THE answer, then all those prime swinging runs will be a lot more crowded. How many swing fishermen have seen the boats pass by? Well they won't be passing by. They will be coming to the top of the run to take their swing through it. There may be some locations where this will work, but not all. Again, so much here is being pushed on the guides. Maybe too much. Sure, they are earning their living working hard using a public resource. They are putting public clients into the fisheries because those clients ask them to. If the guide licensing is in need of ajustment, that is another matter. There are still a lot of reasons that contribute to the problems we see now. Without all the finger pointing about who's to blame and who's doing it wrong the question remains. How the hell do we improve the fisheries so that the fishing experience is good and the runs are sustainable?
 
#162 ·
Also, what is a whitewater season pass. I thought those where for skiing pow in canada.

and i still think a public lottery would be the best solution. Again, it works well at protecting other resources that are effected by human impact. There is currently working models of this too, that could be used as guides/examples before implementing it on new systems.

While most of the current lotterys are for wild and senic /wilderness rivers I think it could be effectively applied to other rivers as well. I know there are also hunting lotteries. Not sure how they work though. Is it a lottery for "one animal" or are they region based?
 
#163 ·
Dustin,

I have to say I am against lottery systems. There is just something about them that totally turns me off. It begins to feel like paying to fish in a trout pond. I dislike pay to play schemes. If you want to increase season license fees, fine. Conservations stamps, awesome too. But as soon as I have to pick a river and a day and pay extra for that it just bothers me. I feel like the exclusivity of that is unacceptable. I would hate to see our rivers turns into something like what has happened in Ireland and GB in general. I'll pay $1000 at the beginning of the season, but I want to be able to choose at 2:30 in the morning where I am going to go based off of current conditions and my whims.
 
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