Reverse/Backhanded Single Spey Question

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by James Waggoner, Feb 10, 2011.

  1. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Same here! Bruce,
    Good discussion with you!
    Ok, I will go out and make some videos...as soon as the slush/ice break up (single digit weather this week).
    Mark
     
  2. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Member

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    No need for video as I know why this happens I am just trying to get you to think outside of the skagit box......casting is casting, long or short. Try to simply explain why the wedge appears and what other benifits to the cast happen.
     
  3. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    Ha... C'mon Bruce,

    You got to give me a chance to show off my "sexy" loop! :rofl:
    got to work now...talk later!
    Mark
     
  4. James Waggoner

    James Waggoner Active Member

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    I'm not even sure I understand the question, but to release energy without "stopping" on your forward stroke is only percieved that way by the eye, the line is saying something completely different..."I'm all amped up...Here's my stop I'm out of here!" That being the end of the bottom hand pull (The peak and release of power and energy stored in the rod and line) and a well timed release of shooting line. The rest is just follow through; upper hand lowers the rod. I do the follow through for a few reason: air mends, to get under the wind...or even use the wind and to help my mono shooting line gain a little traction in the guides to help turn over. I'm obviously no expert...was I close?

    It's fun to think about.
     
  5. Philster

    Philster Active Member

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    Imagine a bullet fired from a plane. The bullet is already traveling the same speed as the plane. So if the line and rod tip are traveling at the same speed and the rod tip slows what happens. It's ugly. Just pointing out that only a portion of the lines forward energy comes from the unloading of a rod. At short distances I can throw tight little V loops with a tuna rod and a 4 wt. line. Obviously, if only for not getting tired or sore, you want as much help from the rod as possible. Distance and control are just gravy :clown:

    That's one of the problems I have with all this. There really are very few true physical rules. Not to worship Ed, but he broke many rules in coming up with his style. I just borrowed his skagitmaster tape. It takes the whole tape for him to finally get around to explaining his 45 degree thrust as he sits on the hood of truck, which isn't a thrust, but hey the snap T isn't a T shape, so why start complaining now:beathead: Back loop 180 degrees from the target? Not necessarily. You can say a dip makes a bloody L. Well, a bad dip makes a bloody L. A shallow accelerated one reduces the size of my anchor.

    The Goran clip in this thread is another example. Like I keep saying in posts "We are men of action" The follow up line in the princess bride is "Lies do not become us" A long rod travel makes a big inefficient loop? Bullpuckey. I can do a Lefty style cast with a single handed rod with the rod almost horizontal behind me and take your eye out with the V I'll produce. You want a tight loop, Just make sure the rod trip travels flat through the stroke. You want a V? it's about the acceleration and the stop. You Load the rod, have flat tip travel, accelerate to a hard stop, and it all happens. HOW you do it doesn't really matter.

    Rules help, and certainly FFF needs to have a baseline instruction protocol. But from there, find your own way. Any who've guided or taught others to fish know this scenario. You get the person out on the water and drill into them to fish in close. Saying things like "You can't fish that water on the other side of the fast water" But you see a big rise and what do you do? Cast a lot of line, shake the rod side to side like you're going to win something if you do it hard enough, lay freakin' coils of slack on the fast water, get a 2 foot drift and Fish freakin' on! Your client looks at you like you've betrayed them and says "I thought you said I couldn't fish that water". From personal experience, especially if you're guiding, the politically correct answer at that point is not "No. I said YOU can't fish that water":p

    Casting is the same. It's not really about technique. Technique came about to properly apply principles. Once you do have solid technique, if you are inclined, you can find other ways to apply the principles.
     
  6. Philster

    Philster Active Member

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    skip forward to 2:37

    And long rod travel being inefficient?
     
  7. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Member

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    Wow, well said Phil.
    I hope you dont think it was I who said that dipping produces a bloody L as it does not it is simply not the most efficient but that does not mean that it wont work for you or others. Everyone is built different and has different hand speeds etc and so you have to figure out what works best for YOU.
    Another thought about loops, why is it that people think that a small tiny loop is going to go the furthest?
    Have fun with your casting people and keep an open mind.
    Oh yeah and Phil do you really think that Ed invented the thrust or he just came to that conclusion on his own while experimenting outside the box?
     
  8. Philster

    Philster Active Member

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    I'm not an Ed worshiper. I do think he's a great ambassador though. My point about mentioning Ed to point out the 180 degree thing. And also back to the "we are men of action" thing: He doesn't thrust. It's more like a train taking a sidespur.

    Just like in the 70s and 80s when every instructor said don't break your wrist, and you'd watch them cast and they're breaking their wrists all over the place. I think Joan Wulff was the first "Name" caster who really nailed the wrist-and-thumb pop description.
     
  9. stewart dee

    stewart dee Guest

    Sounds like you have a lot of experience in the two handed game? How long? Do you think there is a difference between distance with top hand vs. bottom hand casting? thanks.
     
  10. Philster

    Philster Active Member

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    I don't claim to be an expert. Got my first in nineties. I do understand casting and how rods work. I first learned classic stuff from Maxwell, and studied everything I could get my hands on from Falkus when they were the only two viable resources. My natural stroke is a long top hand stroke. The vast majority of my fishing up until I moved up here in 2000 was saltwater, or at least brakish on the Delta, and the saltwater casting stroke is in my blood. Much like a baseball player trying to perfect a golf swing, I think I will always struggle to nail the scandi stroke. Because when I hit hard patches and the short stroke doesn't work, I know that I can go from the "ready position", push both hands forward together accelerating and at almost full extension pop the bottom hand back, and pardon my french, cast the shit out of that mofo!:thumb:

    I think everyone should try everything. But it really is about the fundamental "principles" as lefty preaches. I wish I could just do short pops effortlessly. It's just not me. And if it's not you, there's no reason you should have to either. If you looked at biomechanical modeling of my single hand and double hand, it would be crazy similar with the high hand, as I prove everytime I overhead cast on the sound with my switch. But I'm not trying to be an instructor, or a competitve caster. I just want to fish, and be able to make every cast I need to make.

    And with the standard disclaimer that distance isn't everything, yes I do believe that longer rod travel has the potential to achieve greater distance. The longer stroke has the potential to allow the caster a longer, and therefore more gradual and smoother acceleration and can smooth out shock ripples in the line. But most of us, myself included, aren't capable of taking advantage of that opportunity without near daily practice. Just do the math. the final delivery is the same. Popping the bottom hand. Can you do more with 1.8 feet of tophand travel, or two times or more than that? Now for full day fishing, I'm going to be much less efficient in terms of my body. That's why I'd love to master the scandi. It's just so foreign to me.
     
  11. golfman65

    golfman65 Guest

    Is there a difference between long line travel and drift? Beach fishing or distance casting to get way out there is going to require some drift...you can use drift in the double hand rod as well...Mortensen talks about it, Kinney does as well...It takes a little practice but along with a flat rod path and all the other variables that go into casting can make the difference between what some guys think are long distances and then really long distances...

    Saying that anything will work and go your own way is fine up to a point...getting beyond that point still requires the basic structures to be met....You brought up Ed and he has come up with phenomenal casts in difficult situations...some of which are his own and some like all of us he borrowed and made fit his system...

    Two things stand out from listening to him...One, he said he doesn't cast more then ten strips as he felt that defeated the purpose of what he was doing....a reason why he likes shorter rods etc.
    The second being when he was overseas and giving talks, the lads over there wanted to see him bomb out 150' plus casts...The euro's for some reason like to be impressed by big distance if your going to talk...I believe he said he had a hard time getting through to them that he didn't cast like that...

    So what I'm saying here is that for most of us...casting out to the 120' mark with a skagit etc. is a pretty decent cast....most guys with time and skill level can get there....to get to the 130' and beyond mark requires more skill and being more stringent on making sure you are nailing everything correctly...there is not the margin for error that you seem to say is Ok in casting...

    You can buy a big stick and a comp head and each foot you gain will add distance etc. but like any rod that will only get you so far....Bruce and maybe a handful of guys can reach out to distances that while some talk the talk..not many can walk the walk with....

    Timdog on here is another guy that I've seen on the Thompson and other local rivers who you can hand any rod to and will throw it to the backing knot...That's a 150' cast....They love big water cause guys like me will put the fish out to where only those handful of guys can reach....

    As far a loop size....again, Tim throws darts, that's his style...I've seen more classic distance casting and they are a much more open loop that seems to fall out to the 160-170 mark....

    For all the talk and arguing....There is really only two guys on here who I know can reach the big distances..that's Bruce and Tim....Kinney I should add can do just about anything in casting as well..but would probably find this distance b.s. boring as there are very few places it has any value...but I wouldn't put anything past those old cagey eyes....:)
     
  12. Philster

    Philster Active Member

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    I never said anything will work. I said anything will work as long as they achieve the necessary principles. And again refer back to my guiding/teaching example of fishing across swift currents. If you want to believe that Ed never fishes more than 10 strips fine. It's a great object lesson to teach students to fish well and accurately within a controlled distance. However, if a fishy looking lie is 90 feet out, are you telling me he's not going for it?
     
  13. Philster

    Philster Active Member

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    Yes there is. Drift allows the line to "unroll" in single hand (in quotes because you don't want the line to go dead), or your Loop to fully form in double hand while still maintaining dynamic contact (maybe not the best word choice, but hopefully you get what I'm saying). rod travel, at least as I'm using it is the distance the tip travels from dead stop to dead stop.
     
  14. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Member

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    The guys who cast far sometimes hook fish near the beach but the guys who cast short NEVER catch the fish that are way out there! HA HA
     
  15. James Waggoner

    James Waggoner Active Member

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    I guess I should have been more specific...when the bottom hand ends it's pull in an underhand stroke the top hand is set...so there is a hard stop...then the top hand may follow through. So to the untrained eye it may appear a "Stop" really never occurs until the rods layed down. So the question, I thought I was answering, a quote from one of Marks comments, "a stop can be made without stoping the rod?" My answer was basically: "No, though it may look like it."

    But I'm open to know Marks opinion...and I'd like to see a video of it too, that would be cool!