Reverse/Backhanded Single Spey Question

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by James Waggoner, Feb 10, 2011.

  1. James Waggoner

    James Waggoner Active Member

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    Enter the Dragon!

    I've gathered from the videos that the upstream foot should be forward, so you don't over rotate, and to point the lead foot at your intended target. So I know this isn't a hard and fast rule...I do see an advantage to changing it up when you want to direct your cast more accross or up stream...am I missing other advantages?

    By the way thanks, when it came to casting I used to think "hard and fast" was the style for me...I now like the Bruce Lee "JKD - Economy of Motion" approach of Scandinavian Underhand style. This is the "One Inch Punch" of the spey world.
     
  2. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    JW,

    Nice thought and clear lay out! It's great to see you start to analyze your own casting mechanics! : )

    You are absolutely right about the Scandi underhand casting and right about "the stop" comment! In underhand casting "stop/stroke" occur when the rod stop. so the answer for the underhand casting is a "NO" (you are right about it). "hit the wall" is the motion you feel the energy been released. "the flip"!
    In addition, "Follow through" or "drift out" is just a additional finish touch, has nothing to do with the stop.

    If you go back to re-read my previous posts, you can see I was refer to another less known casting principle - rotation / angular acceleration. This is when "stop" did not come along with the rod motion simultaneously. It is about angular acceleration. It is different than the linear acceleration.

    People are usually more familiar with the linear acceleration, and this is understandable, not only because we learn most of the single hand casting through linear acceleration principle, but also our daily life is full of linear movements - car driving, running, skiing, or shooting bow etc...

    On the other side, rotation is somehow less known and hard to picture if you don't pay extra attentions in your daily life... it is even harder for me to explain it on the verbal discussion... So I decided not to tackle this daunting task on the verbal approach, rather, I would love to make some videos and explain it in the real casting scenarios. I think that would be more satisfying for me and for the audiences. Eh... it has been a busy week for me... @@
    talk later!

    Mark
     
  3. golfman65

    golfman65 Guest

    I was typing when you posted your two posts so didn't see them...I wanted to see if you were talking about drift versus long line....your casting style sounds a lot like the classic casters...my bud knew mike and his wife quite well..some may say his wife was the better caster and held the world record for single hand rods for a bit...Heard he was a "body" guy similar to more modern scandi casters...guy like Niska who owns Whistler fly fishing I believe style was based on this...correct me bruce or ralf if i'm wrong on this???
    Just know it's a tough style for me to use...guess I would be called modern scottish style..from a forum I can't find the link for right now...but was very informative on how to use a horizontal lift on the single spey that would lay your fly out in front of you and make setting up your fly a lot more effective then the lift and dip method
     
  4. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Member

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    Yep I would say that Niska has a similiar body rock style in both single hand and double hand casting>
     
  5. Philster

    Philster Active Member

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    I love the "modern Scottish" aesthetic. The "Hammer" stroke I referred to when talking about Tyler Kushnir ( I think it was in this thread) is a high hand position, short stroke the Scots came up with. Playing around with that one may be why I can't do the scandi!

    I don't know about her casting records, but Denise Maxwell was actually the Guide in the family. Amazing lady.
     
  6. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    In addition to the THCI comments…

    (warning, if you are not into THCI instruction test, DON'T read! Thanks)

    Two Handed Casting Instructor to me will not be a “badge”, nor does it will ever be served as a glory illusion. It is just a part of angling life (hobby) in me. A simply joy to share idea, casting mechanics with others. The satisfaction of seeing other people improve their casting, shorten their learning curve is as good as catching a fish myself. I have no desire to pursue the certification per se. Instead, receiving a whole package of educational training is what I am really after.
    Follow the same logic and philosophy, sharing information and help people getting into different casting styles on the internet is the true spirit of THCI. I truly believe that everyone here that willing to share their experience and helping others in this forum ARE all THCI in my book.

    For clarify, One of the reasons, I always brought up some big names like Mr. Ed Ward and Mr. Mike Kinney is not because they are “famous” per se. To me, it is mainly due to the spirits that they are willing to provide those free tutoring on the internet. I simply learned a ton of casting skills from their videos and internet writings. The motivation to post casting mechanics on the internet is simply come from inspirations from them and other internet activists. Not a worship or some sort of “bromance”!

    As a educator myself (I taught biology lab in a university while I was a graduate student ), there are always two different kind of challenges that instructor are facing everyday. First, the ability to gather and digest the correct information, second, the ability to transform and transfer the knowledge to the students. It doesn’t matter how good of a researcher you are, if you fail to transfer those information to the students. You are still a failing educator. The same failing will come, if you did not update the knowledge according the current research field. The same principle can also apply to the casting instructors. It doesn’t matter how good you are as a caster, if you can’t transform the techniques into common sense and deliver it to the public as a layman’s words, it is still a failing instruction. As well as, if a instructor did not update the knowledge of recent developed techniques to suit the demand from the current angling environments.

    Internet forums are the forefront/ and experimental grounds of the angling industry. Some of the “backyard” techniques we talk about here will be in the main stream in the near future (at least some of them will and already does). Along the same logic, Federation of Fly Fishers (FFF) will be following those new developed casting techniques as well and provide instruction support for the market.

    As I mentioned before, short shooting head casting has gone a long way from the traditional casting techniques, and gained a tremendous popularity and development in the recent year (streamside wise, and industry wise). Just like Goran Andersson has predicted many years ago! In my personal opinion, the FFF will be adapting to this trend to increase the instruction content of the short head casting to fulfill the need of the future angling environment. Especially to suit the need of different sub-styles in shooting head casting.

    The old simple casting principle still will be the foundation, however, as more diverged development of different techniques (tackle wise and casting wise). There is less tolerance for the ignorance of the instruction part. I think Mike K. has a great sum up post of this kind of “adaptive instruction” that he mentioned in his earlier post that he is not trying to teach the client “what is the right way” to cast, instead, he is working with the client’s way to make his own cast happen. As you can picture this will be a daunting task for the future instructors regarding many new developed casting styles and casting principles.

    Mark
     
  7. golfman65

    golfman65 Guest

    I got to find this site...explains a lot of casting methods and styles...kind of cool as they define different styles and is funny to see what your's is compared to what you think it may have been...I thought I'd become more underhand style but am much more modern scottish which is underhand, with some body using skagits/scandi/shorter headed dry lines....kind of a combo of a few methods...sounds like the mutt version of speycasting...I'll see If I can find it and post it..

    Ok, if your really into casting etc. check this out, look for the tab bar and pull down and click what you want..I am not at this level..but it works and is pretty bad ass..

    www.robertgillespie.net/page4/page7/page7.html
     
  8. Philster

    Philster Active Member

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    Hunh... Is there casting there? I "accidentally" hit the salmon fly button and have been "occupied" for a bit time. :thumb:
     
  9. golfman65

    golfman65 Guest

    check out the fly casting bar, go down to incline exercise...I tried that with my dry lines and it was quite an improvement over my lift and dip method...
     
  10. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Member

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    Phil the hammer and the Incline cast are one in the same although Kush`s version that you might have seen is a little off the mark ;-)
    Mark, I think that you have some great ideas on the fff but myself and others view it as nothing but an old boys club, dont get me wrong there are several in it who do good but there are many people in it who should never have passed the test that have and several who took the test and should have passed and did not so you might want to keep that in mind, a thci really meens little to those in the know as it were.
    I have said it once and I will say it again the principles of the cast are the same long or short head, big rod little rod........
     
  11. Philster

    Philster Active Member

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    yup. Dats da one! Except what Kush was doing, and this was 6 or 7 years ago, and he had just picked it up, was a much higher hold, and probably a little farther behind his ear as well. Like a killer in slasher movie:rofl:

    It's almost my stroke except my top arm extends farther forward.
     
  12. TimDog

    TimDog New Member

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    Hi there again, I am not reaching the huge distances as compared to the awsome long lineing styles of Bruce, Brian, Greg, or any of the Scottish dudes, all these guys are head and shoulders above me. This long line competiton casting is new to me and I am hoping to have fun and learn from these great casters. I appreciate the kind comments regarding my casting but talk of my casting on the internet web forums makes me a little uncomfortable, mostly because I dont own a computer and usually dont participate on internet forums.
     
  13. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Member

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    Dont sweat it Tim, you will do just fine. The way I look at it the only one I am competing against is myself.
     
  14. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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    (not quite sure what (Philster) you mean? could you elaborate? thanks)

    Golfman65 and Philster

    I feel I need to make a definition and explain the term "drift" here. Because I am the first person in this thread to use the term "drift". I said "drift is bad in underhand cast because it will lost pivot energy"

    After reading you two's posts, I understand we are talking about different "drift". Just to be clear here, let me define my "drift" first:

    My drift is a pivot shifting movement during underhand stroke (bad thing). For my case, tophand is my pivot, stationed close to body (did not move) served as solid pivot, only the bottom hand stroke to pivot the rod and "flip" line out. IF I move my top hand during this final stroke which is shifting the solid pivot point (drifting). Then the pivot energy will be eaten away from this pivot shifting. How to picture this? If you throw a tennis ball to a concrete wall, compare to throw a tennis ball to a spongy wall. which one will bounce back with higher speed? Yes, the concrete wall! because the solid wall give you full energy support. And the spongy wall EAT your energy away. (let me know if this example is not clear).

    On the other hand, your drift regard to Henrik's body movement and Mike's longer movement. It is not a drift in my definition. Your drift is a "stroke".

    Longer stroke versus short stroke during the power application (all good things). So what Henrik said in the movie I provide above is that he mention you can use body shifting to generate power stroke. "just like boxer's left hook". This your "drift" = stroke is also in the Mr. lefty's video that Philster has provided. The longer stroke and then stop to cast a line. So this "drift" is a different thing to my "pivot drift".

    Philster, In the second video about the single hand competition caster. The stroke is fairly long. The reason being the long stoke accelerate the power and make a long cast. We all know the final high line speed determine the maximum distance.

    There are two ways to control line speed. 1) The long stroke. 2) The high speed burst stop.

    You can have a long stroke with low speed stop = smooth caster for fishing
    OR

    You can have a short stroke + high speed burst stop = scandi caster for fishing

    But you want have a maximum distance for competition. YOU NEED BOTH.
    Long stroke acceleration + high speed burst stop = this will give you the MAX DISTANCE.


    0:40 Sec, see Steve have a long stroke (body movement) and a very amazing hard burst stop!


    Let me know if you need me to explain more...
    Mark
     
  15. fisshman26

    fisshman26 Member

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    Mark drift is easily done in your description of scandi casting without loosing the pivot point if you raise your top hand straight up..........simple, again basic casting principle and applies long or short line.
    The extended distance stroke has more to do with a longer line outside the rod tip than you would think.