Role of WSMZ

Discussion in 'Steelhead' started by Smalma, Jan 2, 2013.

  1. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

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    Don't tell me what I believe. Understand? If you want to know what I believe, ask and I will tell you. I'm fairly good with the language and perfectly able to communicate my beliefs. That's not your job and it's intellectually dishonest for you to do it for me.

    Read my posts. It's pretty clear that I have strong ideas with regards to wild steelhead and potential hatchery impacts. I am always clear however that the impacts we aren't looking at are potential impacts because they are at best under studied and at worst intentionally ignored. Either way they are unknown. This is in sharp contract to believing that I have all the answers, which as usual is an insult from you.

    It truly is hard to determine what you understand as I have instructed you to not put words in my mouth or thoughts in my head before. Yet you do it once again. I suppose it's easier than arguing the merits of my actual thoughts but it's dishonest. I would think at some point you would want to elevate the level of content that you put forth in the discussion.

    Please step up your game or step out.

    Go Sox,
    cds
     
    TallFlyGuy likes this.
  2. Chris Bellows

    Chris Bellows Your Preferred WFF Poster

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    the sol duc summer run plants will be discontinued as part of the WSMZ according to my understanding of what was proposed and passed when snyder creek was discontinued and the sol suc made into a WSMZ. the other option for the coast (clearwater) was also a tributary of a heavily planted river. my point was stating that none of the current WSMZ's do not have serious hatchery issues still in effect due to the tributary effect.

    yes, some of the worst returning rivers (such as the nisqually, cedar, hood canal) have seen plants stopped (some very recently) i think many of us would prefer we choose WSMZ's with actual runs of wild steelhead. we also have recently seen many of the small creeks have their plants stopped so hopefully we can see what happens over the next 5-15 years on these waters that have no tribal netting (i would like to see if the early returning life history makes a strong appearance).

    chris
     
  3. Smalma

    Smalma Active Member

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    Chris -
    Thanks for the clarification on the Sol Duc summer plants - about what I woud expect.

    I'm not so sure that given the behavior of steelhead smolts, the size and condition of the smolts and how quickly they migrate downstream I'm not sure how much interaction there would be between the hatchery and wild smolts sharing the same main river as a migration corridor from their juvenile home to the salt for a few days. Just don't believe in situations such as a Sauk or Sol Duc WSMZ that there is much of freshwater impact in that brief they are using the same section of river.

    Noitice that I just referred to the freshwater overlap. I know that some belief that once they reach the salt there may be significant interactions. That has largely been unstudied and potential impacts undefined. Regadless even in the marine water there has been progress made in reducing that potential interaction. For the period from 2002 through 2008 the average number of hatchery steelhead smolts (summers and winters) from Puget Sound rivers was 2.2 million fish. For the years 2009 through 2011 that number has been reduced to 1.55 million smolts or about 30%.

    I can understand and appreciate the desire to have WSMZs that actually have wild steelhead which is why some have pushed so hard for changes we have seen on the Sauk, most of the Cascade and upper Skagit (where not only have the planting of hatchery fish end we have CnR for all species with selective gear rules anytime it is open for fishing). They produce a significant portion of the wild steelhead in the basin, represent a diverse cross section of habitats and in additon to the anadormous O.mykiss produce all the other species and lfie histories (except adfluvial) found in the basin.

    BTW
    For steelhead the Samish while a smallish basin it produces a significant number of wild steelhead every year (500 to 1,000 fish a year) and over the last 15 years or so as measured against the established escapement goals it may have the most robust wild winter population found in the Puget Sound basin.

    Curt
     
  4. Chris Johnson

    Chris Johnson Member: Native Fish Society

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    I used to catch alot of fish out of that ditch( Samish), we would start fishing it in early December. There is alot more habitat there than people think, between the upper Samish and Friday creek. It will be an entire basin with no hatchery fish, and no strays from one trib to another, which is a concern for me with a WSMZ in part of a system.
     
  5. Chris Bellows

    Chris Bellows Your Preferred WFF Poster

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    i consider net fisheries targeting hatchery fish "significant hatchery impacts", especially in systems with historically large early returning wild runs.
     
  6. TallFlyGuy

    TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

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    It seems pretty obvious something is happening to the smolt....How do we get approval and or funding for research and studies done to find out/fix the problem? Do we all need to stand in front of walmart and ask for signatures ;) ?
     
  7. Rich Simms

    Rich Simms Active Member

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  8. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

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    It's pretty clear that you're impressed with yourself...those ideas and thoughts are not my doing. I simply asked the question what river met the "has never been tainted with hatchery stock" for which you responded the Samish. My reply with the video was to suggest that any system selected to be a test case should, IMO, be closed down to all fishing. It was also to add a little humor...sorry you did not find any. Your opinions, like everyone's, are welcomed.
     
  9. Chris DeLeone

    Chris DeLeone Active Member

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    FreeStone - What is your basis for having all fishing closed down in a system like the Skagit and a WSMZ - I assume that a C&R fishery would be included in that. Im very interested in why you think that would need to be done.

    Is there a system out there that has successfully stopped hatcheries, hatchery strays, closed fishing, made habitat improvements and rebuilt the runs.

    Chris
     
  10. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

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    This is just a flat out lie. WTF is the matter with you?


    Go Sox,
    cds
     
  11. Chris Bellows

    Chris Bellows Your Preferred WFF Poster

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    you do realize we can go back and read your posts?

     
  12. freestoneangler

    freestoneangler Not to be confused with Freestone

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    I was actually hoping that opportunity might happen on the Elwah. My basis/reason is that if we truly want to see whether a system can, without any intrusions from hatchery plants, fishing, and water flow regulation, rebuild wild fish on its own, then eliminating them (unwanted factors) would be best-IMO. Otherwise, you will always have the "well, it's not working because of hatchery plants, or restricted access to parts of the watershed with the best spawning habitat, or over-harvest issues"...which most of us agree are parts of the problem. By eliminating these variables, we can more accurately control the test.

    We should consider the possibility that some or all of our watersheds may not be able to rebuild under even the most ideal conditions we can create. That possibility is why many are a bit leery of the "wild fish or nothing" mantra.
     
  13. KerryS

    KerryS Ignored Member

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    It is quite interesting be able to only see one side of the argument. I can almost imagine what the other side is saying. Likely something about the church of wild steelhead and how it is so mistrusted. Tell me I am wrong. This is so predictable.
     
  14. skyrise

    skyrise Active Member

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    question.
    with over 40 years of hatchery plants why would fishing be so bad now, when it was so good from 1950 to almost 1985 ?
    why would it take so long ? if we are blaming hatchery fish for most of the problem ?
    i started back in 1972 and there was always a good number of early natives caught in December.
    this is just me but i noticed a big change after 1974 (Boldt). like around 1978.
    just wondering.
     
  15. inland

    inland Active Member

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    I think Bolt just happened to coincide with a downturn. Mid 80's and the Skagit was a BOOM. Better than the 70's. All the PS rivers boomed in the 80's. Or nearly all of them. And then they crashed about the same time. Those with the worst habitat fell sooner and farther. I think it is far too easy to blame the treaty Tribes...