sage 1016 - light line casting

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by yuhina, Nov 22, 2011.

  1. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    c'mon, Mark. Just one little reality based casting vid. It's OK if it's not perfect-look, I posted a humiliating cast and I didn't die!
    c'mon, pleeeeeze? Pretty please?
     
  2. T Dave

    T Dave Member

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  3. Brady Burmeister

    Brady Burmeister Active Member

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    You seem to shrug off the mechanics that go into competitive distance casting, and the resulting skills developed which in turn translate into real fishing cast mechanics. How could it possibly be more efficient to waive around all that extra graphite it your hands to throw a 300 grain line, only using 1/3rd of the rod's power, when you could could hold much less rod in your hand and the rod will do much more work for you throwing the same line?
     
  4. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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  5. Brady Burmeister

    Brady Burmeister Active Member

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    No, I was not comparing 16' "light line" to 16' "heavy line". I was comparing 10 wt. rod power for throwing 400 grains. to 5 wt. rod power for throwing 400 grains. Line management after the cast is a separate issue from the cast. Maybe you should try Meiz's 15'9" 4/5/6 to throw that 400 gr line and see which is easier and more efficient.
     
  6. Wadecalvin

    Wadecalvin Member

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    One of the reasons these light lines cast so nice is because they are very well engeneered lines lines and some of the easiest casting lines made. I have the same lines and like them very much. I think casting something like an under weighted longbelly or even an old 789 windcutter with the two tips on that 16' #10 would require perfect technique and timing etc.

    I read many comments about the windcutter being the best line to learn on (I think they are old comments) I'm not so sure. But I think these newer lines are a breeze to cast comparatively speaking. I'm sure Jerry the atlantic salmon god as cast a few in his day.
     
  7. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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  8. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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  9. Wadecalvin

    Wadecalvin Member

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    Unfortunately I also tried a lighter windcutter on a heavier rod and the results were fugly! I will not be posting a video of that casting session!:beathead:
     
  10. inland

    inland Active Member

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    Mark,

    Now take that same line and rod, get to a real fishing depth and change the angle to 90 degrees. Try and get some clear footage (including from the casters POV) of the loop as has been said they do not lie. And if I remember from watching the clip there are about ten strips of about a yard each. 30 something foot head, approx 30 feet of running line, and the rod length plus overhang. So a cast that is landing somewhere between 65' and 75'. Possibly 80' depending on leader length and turnover. Which of course is plenty for a lot of water. Your friend does look smooth, well above average- can you see WHY he is able to get that light head to load? EXACTLY what he is doing to get the line speed and load? It would be a nice frame of reference if you could duplicate his technique and results.

    One of the other vids you posted (I think the rage test) showed a line with nasty side deflection. Cast looked to be about a 45 degree angle change and if you look closely the line lands with an arc (no it wasn't wind drift). Do you know what causes that flaw? My previous suggestion to you to see first hand what the best casters are doing was based on you appearing to fail to see this line arc while gushing over the cast.

    Skill is also measured by results.

    If you find two handed/spey casting in the dark hard as hell v overhead, this goes straight to the point of casting mechanics. There are some flaws in your mechanics and/or how you are making adjustments. You should be able to safely and effectively cast with your eyes closed.

    'finally somebody tried it'....Mark underlining rods is as old as the hills. Having driven myself nuts chasing 'underlining' for several years I learned a lot along the way. Underlining works but you are sacrificing a lot to do it. Spot duty? Sure. But as a daily line of choice? No way.

    I do not have sufficient camera equipment nor time to make casting vids for critique. But if you find yourself on the Snake drainage come early Oct I am more than willing to spend time sharing ideas and having a mini clave.

    William
     
  11. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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  12. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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  13. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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  14. inland

    inland Active Member

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    Really? A short head, same weight as a long head penetrates the wind better? Lets get real numbers out there. How short and how long? How heavy and what rod are we using? The shorter head only outperforms the longer head if they carry the same mass and momentum with the same 'breeze' AND it actually has less air drag through density/diameter. Otherwise it could be the other way around. You are making a ridiculous laboratory assumption that the longer line always equals more surface area. IT DEPENDS ON SPECIFICS. Real fishing conditions are more complex than youtube casting demos. Comp casting takes this game to a level far beyond my understanding/skill set.

    But lets go back and define 'outperform' as this is the real sticking point of ACTUAL FISHING CONDITIONS. Not casting into a wind tunnel with a casting robot. What do you mean by outperform? Distance? Turnover? Wind drift? Direct head wind? Angled head wind? Side wind? How much wind? Caloric output (actual effort, not perceived)? A 900 grain 95' head vs. a 900 grain 25' head. Each cast to 100'. Same rod. Real world conditions you also have to factor handling 75' v. 5' of running line PLUS what it takes to get that cast to land at 100'. Does time become a factor where the long head caster can get 5 casts off to the short SH users three? Oh yeah, real world again, how much energy are you losing with the friction of that 75'+ running line coming off the water(does your running line float well)/out of your hands/through the guides? What happens to that lightweight shooting line when the wind catches it, causing up or downstream drift? Have you ever watched this when casting a spinning rod? Seeing the arc as the nearly weightless line is blown off course with the potential effect of acting like an air brake? Let alone having to fix this problem after your lure/flyline lands and is fishing. Both clips of 'Jerry' show him removing running line tangles. And this is for 75' - 85' casts (there isn't a chance those casts come even close a LINEAR 100'). Where does this rank for overall performance when you have even one cast stopped by twists and tangles?

    See the 'secret' to these new fangled shooting heads isn't entirely their tapers its their total weight-grains/foot. All you are doing with these 'underlining' experiments is getting the grains per foot back down, closer to that of a SPEYLINE. Yes of course the weight concentration makes a difference (which is what really separates the extinct windcutter from a GPS). You can't cast the underlined speyline because you have dropped this ratio too low for your/anyone's skills. The 'driving myself crazy' comment stems from a decade of chasing the lightest grains I could get away with. The difference where one chases speed with a light arrow instead of momentum with the heavy slow arrow, using the same bow. There is an optimal balance in there. I do find it strange that I have come full circle again, where the slow bend through the butt cap rods easily outperform the fast cast off the top half of the blank rod. Where the modern UK tapers so called 'through action' with fast recovery are 'pretty good'. BTW these rods smoke shooting heads just as well as they do with long bellies and everything inbetween.

    To your other point about casting in the dark. Yes wind, water, waves, wading depth, casting distance et al make a difference. When you put in the time to develop consistant repeatable form through FEEL you will understand that spey casting without visual clues is no different than overhead. It is by feel (and sound). Will you be making world beater casts? No but you likely aren't either with the overhead presentation at night. You are making broad assumptions again that I only use one line. I prefer to fish long belly lines (90'+) including CND DT's when appropriate. This isn't a sniffing and measuring contest that 'oh I can cast a longer head than you' bragging type of thing. It is just what I learned to incorporate into my fishing doing exactly what you are doing- learning as much as you can by getting your hands on most of it. After many years of practice and fishing these are the lines I learned to use and enjoy. Do indeed cast and fish skagits and scandi's and everything inbetween.
     
  15. yuhina

    yuhina Tropical member

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