Sea-Run Cutthroat - Silver?

Discussion in 'Saltwater' started by ZachMatthews, Mar 30, 2006.

  1. alpinetrout

    alpinetrout Banned or Parked

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    Kokanee are landlocked Sockeye
     
  2. Willie Bodger

    Willie Bodger Still, nothing clever to say...

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    Oh yeah...:eek: (couldn't find sheepish grin). So, then, red makes sense. So, what's a landlocked silver? Dead?
     
  3. alpinetrout

    alpinetrout Banned or Parked

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    There are landlocked coho and I'm sure they have common nicknames, but I've always just heard them called "landlocked coho".
     
  4. Preston

    Preston Active Member

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    To the best of my knowledge, landlocked coho salmon (Oncorhynchus kisutch) do not occur naturally, though WDFW has at times stocked coho fry in some lowland lakes. Kokanee (O. nerka kennerlyi), the naturally occurring subspecies of the sockeye salmon O. nerka) has been widely stocked in lowland lakes where it is commonly known as the 'silver' Or "silver trout". It occurs naturally in, among others, Lake Washington.

    This is a prime example of the confusion generated when common or local names are used to discuss fish. The name "coho" is used interchangeably with "silver". Resident coho (who never leave Puget Sound) are called "resident coho", or "resident silvers" or just "residents", we used to call them "feeder silvers". Chinook salmon (O. tshawaytscha) are also called "kings" and, in Canada, "springs". The resident form, in Puget Sound, is a "blackmouth". Sockeye salmon are also known as "reds" and, on the coast, as "bluebacks". Sea-run cutthroat are known in southwest Washington as "harvest trout" and in some locales as "bluebacks". As you can see, without a fairly intimate knowledge of just what species you're talking about, a lot of fog can be generated.
     
  5. Steve Rohrbach

    Steve Rohrbach Puget Sound Fly Fisher

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    Preston, thank you as always for shedding light and sharing your vast knowledge. It is a pleasure to read your insightful posts. I look forward to seeing you on a Puget Sound beach soon.
    Best regards, Steve
     
  6. ZachMatthews

    ZachMatthews Nil desperandum, trutta semper est.

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    Thank you all for clearing that up. I actually got on Amazon and ordered Dr. Behnke's book this morning before evening reading the suggestion! Glad to know I made the right choice.

    Preston - are you a biologist by trade? I have a lot more questions.

    Zach
     
  7. Preston

    Preston Active Member

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    Not at all. I just have a deep and long-lasting interest in fish; at least in our native species. If you have any questions, I'd be happy (to the best of my ability) to try to answer them.
     
  8. chongfk

    chongfk Banned or Parked

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    So when people say fishing the salt for silvers, they can mean either Coho or resident Coho. I never know black mouth means resident king. I always thought it simply refers to immature kings. I really learn a lot. Thanks!!
     
  9. Preston

    Preston Active Member

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    Kings that will make the enormous gyre from Puget Sound or the Columbia River and up into the Gulf of Alaska and return, move pretty steadily, feeding all the while, once they reach salt water. Once they have left Puget Sound, by late spring, our waters will be pretty devoid of kings until mature fish from an earlier year's run return to commence their spawning runs, which may be as early as March (spring chinook), or much later (summer and fall chinook).

    A small percentage instead, choose to remain their entire lives within the Sound and are, thus, available to the angler throughout the winter (the sport fishery for blackmouth was, traditionally, a winter and early spring fishery). These "blackmouth" (a reference to the king's black gumline) usually don't achieve the maximum size of a mature ocean-going king, 10-12 pounds being a pretty good fish, though exceptional specimens have reached 30+ pounds.

    Yes, "fishing the salt for silvers" can mean fishing for returning ocean-going fish in the late summer or fall or fishing for resident silvers at almost any time of the year. Wild, native populations of blackmouth and resident silvers are only a shadow of what they were a few decades ago. Unrealistic limits on resident silvers (6 fish under 18 inches), in a highly popular fishery, decimated them and only recently have populations shown some recovery. This has largely been due to the discovery that young silvers, kept in pens beyond their normal time of outmigration, tended, when released, to residualize and remain within a limited area. A full-grown resident silver may reach as much as 3 to 5 pounds at maturity.
     
  10. ibn

    ibn Moderator

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    I'm on a roll with the pics from another thread, so I thought I'd include some examples in this one to.

    Resident puget sound "blackmouth" around 7lbs
    [​IMG]

    Compared to a returning King:
    [​IMG]

    Resident puget sound coho:
    [​IMG]

    Compared to a migratory puget sound coho:
    [​IMG]
     
  11. ak_powder_monkey

    ak_powder_monkey Proud to Be Alaskan

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    there are a few lakes here in SE AK that the minimum size limit for a keeper cutt is 25" I plan on winning the lottery then hiring float planes to take me to those lakes
     
  12. ak_powder_monkey

    ak_powder_monkey Proud to Be Alaskan

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    Most of the waters between say mid oregon and well cook inlet are a)recently covered in ice b) quite small and sterile or c) big glacial rivers all three are not particularly suitable locals for resident fish hence the lack of resident rainbows or cuttthroats. Cutthroats probablly populated the coastal area since the end of the last iceage probably coming from the columbia drainage, they like everything else adapted to their enviroment and filled the same niche as dollies. Most of the streams that have SRCs don't naturally have resident rainbows because they are too young or too sterile (they also don't have resident cutts, or dollies) to survive and thrive the fish must go to sea, when rainbows go they get big when cutts go they don't if you were a big steelhead would you spawn with a puny cutthroat? probably not, hence your lack of interbreeding.


    assuming kokanee do the same thing as sockeyes heres my advice:

    fish riffles, flats, and pocket water, avoid pools (this might not apply here sockeyes chase trout out of pools kokanee might not do that) fish a single 6mm bead in light pink or rootbeer above a bear hook use just enough split shot so you can see it ticking the bottom every once in a while but not enough that you get snaged a bunch. Fish behind paired up kokanee, sight fish to individual bows etc. a good dead drift is key as it not spooking the fish. Fish early in the run when often time the bows get so full of salmon eggs that they won't move to eat or eat at all, I usually fish 2 or 3 weeks before the peak spawn. Practice those techniques on your stalker farm ponds as practice for the real deal up here.

    I had one fish steal a fly line and caught the biggest resident rainbow of my life (32 inch steely my biggest mykiss)
    [​IMG]
    different fish note bead melted to a hook deadly cheap and legal in fly fish only waters in ak
    [​IMG]
    and never overlook the esl this dolly woulnd't hit beads so I switched and fist cast boom!
    [​IMG]
     
  13. ak_powder_monkey

    ak_powder_monkey Proud to Be Alaskan

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    is that a keani king?

    that migratory silver is considered a feeder in prince william sound because its still feeding (see how the scales are falling off) and we get 15 cents a pound for em, think about that next time you pay $10 + for coho :confused:

    nice fish btw