So how do you get down in winter?

Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by James Waggoner, Dec 21, 2009.

  1. Brazda

    Brazda Fly Fishing guide "The Bogy House" Lodge

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    Nail on the head,,,good to see some old school tactics come out,,,remember the single hand days of sink tipping, tension or lack there of was and still is everything:)
    It does not allways take heavy and more often then not drifting the swing is key,,,tapp some bottom to get a little head!!!!
     
  2. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

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    I fish type 3 and 6 tips as well. I rarely wade over mid calf anymore.

    Often I think I should high grade holding water more. I am sure that I still fish water that is a bit too quick.


    Go Red Sox,
    cds
     
  3. bhudda

    bhudda heffe'

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    when you go out next time, try your usual swing then cast again, feeding a rods length of line and then repeat with 2 rod lengths of line fed into the cast. ???huh?? ...... if your are under tension, you have either stopped the progress of depth or you are on the rise. i find if your using more then 180 gr. tips you cant fish the inside bank, most likely hang-up city. Justin Crump struck a chord in stating the fact you miss alot of water... i only use airflo 200 custom cut tips, they sink faster then t14 and are pe looped, cake.......
     
  4. bconrad

    bconrad Active Member

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    One of the most effective ways I have found to make sure I'm getting a good slow swing is to avoid trying to cast over to the other side of the river. If you're set up in a river right position, for example, and you have a nice slow seam with slow water on the inside and fast water on the outside, you don't really want to get your whole belly and sink tip out into the fast water. This will just make it so you have to cast way upstream and let the whole thing sink for a couple seconds, and then when it comes under tension the whole thing is ripping along which makes it hard to get a good slow swing.

    I usually just cast enough into the fast water to get the sinktip and belly all straightened out, then focus on keeping tension off the line so your fly can swim. Don't worry so much about where the fly is in the water column, just concentrate on slowing that swing down. This will often mean you'll need to manipulate the tension on the line by holding it back, or pulling it forward a little. Spey rods are great for this because you can create the "anchor" of the swing (off the tip of the rod) through a much larger area. Concentrate on what your fly is doing, and try to visualize that nice slow swim across the current. The longer you can hold it in a piece of holding water, the better you'll do.

    Hope this makes sense. I need more coffee. :)
     
  5. James Waggoner

    James Waggoner Active Member

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    Makes perfect since, and that is pretty much exactly what I do, right down to visualiizing my fly...I was just hoping I could get some info to help me get my fly to do something extraordinary, which by now I understand is an impossibility. My problem is what your all saying I just want to get into that heavy water and down and it's not gonna work. I do know how to read water and mend, I was just hoping someone could open my eyes to a new way to do the impossible...swinging in pretty deep and fast currents. I'm not sure if any of you have ever found this to be true but some of the largest steelhead I've caught were in really heavy water, and the way I used to fish a heavy deep run was to get above the heavy water and just feed line into it, let it come tight and hold it into the current letting it come tight and slowly swinging it out and every once and awhile I got rewarded...Perhaps maybe thats the answer for that particular run dynamic, again I was just hoping to see if there was a way to systematically step and cast and swing this type of water. In the past month of adding FEET of t-14 and 17 I did learn something...I found out I CAN CAST 16' of t-17 with a 480grn head, something would have said a week ago was probably impossible. And yes, I'm a recent victem of that research article posted on the Polyleader thread...I just thought they were on to something.

    Thanks guys, for all the input I'll get back to shorter lighter lengths and watermanship.

    James.
     
  6. bconrad

    bconrad Active Member

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    Well, you could always start messing around with a shooting head type setup. How about 40 feet or so of T-14 attached to a mono running line? Chuck and duck baby!
     
  7. shotgunner

    shotgunner Anywhere ~ Anytime

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    I don't know how deep or heavy the water is your lusting but you can do some impressive stuff with a full sink head. Hydraulics lessen with depth, that floating head is killing your intent. Guideline S 2/3 digs hard. S3/4 are pretty radical. Known for STRONG turnover. Real eye opener to see these cast side by side with a skagit & tips.
     
  8. speyfisher

    speyfisher Active Member

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    Get down, get down, get down. That's all you hear now days. Gotta be ticking the rocks. Put it right in their face. Like no one ever caught winter fish on the fly before T-14, or nymphing was invented? It's interesting to hear someone telling of the days when Hi-Speed Hi-D was the latest, greatest thing. I'm gonna have to go back a find that post again.
     
  9. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

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    5 feet of 30 lb mono or wire between the tip and your line.

    Go Sox,
    cds
     
  10. thewaker

    thewaker Tight line takes ain't no fakes!!

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    Bconrad,

    That shooting head thing is something I may have to try again with a spey rod.That's what I grew up doing with a single hander.A 30ft Hi D head with amnesia running line. It made you think about where you threw it because once it hit there wasn't a whole lot of mending to be done. Probably not much more than a type 3, but without the floating fly line to impede its sink rate it GOT DOWN just fine. That thin diameter running line just slices through the water and gives almost no resistance. Huck that puppy upstream a bit and,let it swing down in front of you,maybe a slight pull back mend to straighten it out and let her go. I caught a bazillion fish on the that set up. Crude but effective when you figure out how to fish it. Really a lot like fishing a lure, which is kind of what these shorter and shorter skagit lines are trying to do essentially.

    Pretty soon we will be back to fishing 15-30ft heads with mono backing again, full circle baby.

    Mark
     
  11. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

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    James W.,

    Another thought on gear and fly line technology. If you're willing to attach it and try to cast it, you can fish most any steelhead holding water. What we used to say is, not all steelhead water is fly water. Part of the choice of deciding to fly fish for steelhead involves giving up some of the water you'd fish with conventional drift fishing gear. The gear available to us now certainly expands the range of fly fishable water. I find that I haven't changed all that much though because if I can't fly fish it the way I want, then I might just as well get a spinning or drift rod. It kinda' comes back to why one chooses to fly fish for winter steelhead. It ain't because it's a practical choice.

    Sg
     
  12. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

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    Can I get an amen?

    Go Sox,
    cds
     
  13. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    Charles, I'm not qualified to toss you an amen or not. Does that mono section between the fat floater and the sinking tip allow for better sink due to the thin profile vs the ongoing hydrodymanic properties of the water on the line? That seems to be logical due to the small diameter of that mono. How does a rig like that cast and turn over? I think it was FAE that mentioned a similar approach. Interesting. Thanks in advance for any further clarification for my dumb ass. Go Sox, love the new skull logo. Ed
     
  14. Charles Sullivan

    Charles Sullivan dreaming through the come down

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    Fred uses a similar deal. Casts like shit. It works due to the difference in diameter and sinking properties. I don't use it anymore, on account of what SalmoG said.

    It's a sox steal your face. Not an ordinary skull.

    Go Sox,
    cds
     
  15. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks Charles. If it casts like shit then I'll stay away. I cast like shit already.