Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by IveofIone, Nov 21, 2008.
We can't get rid of industry and expect to compete in the global marketplace.
i envy those without a car payment... unfortunately a few years ago i made the mistake of buying a Saab 9-3 while I was living in florida that fell apart and barely ran after a couple years (thanks GM!). it eventually had so many problems that it was worth far less than I owed on it, and somehow toyota took it on trade without checking it out. there was no way i was going to be able to sell it (to get rid of a payment), so i got very lucky in acquiring my new toyota. i'll deal with a car payment for now i guess. and pathfinders are great! i'd trade my situation i'm in for a pathfinder with no payment!
Burck, I have no doubt that the Scion you have is an excellent and highly practical vehicle. In fact I would love to have one if it was all-wheel drive as it would be an excellent replacement for my aging Explorer. (Which was totaled last year and I bought back from the insurance company for $330 with only minor cosmetic damage).
But when I was a kid growing up and going to auto shows in the 50s, the car of the future was always depicted as a swoopy machine, often with a glass roof and fins and some magical powerplant. Now fast forward 50 years and the products are considerably more tame than we envisioned 50 years ago. But we never in our wildest dreams envisioned cars like the Scion, Honda Element or the Nissan Cube. Cars that somehow appear to have been styled by emulating UPS boxes that have been left out in the rain!
There is a reason though that UPS boxes aren't shaped like Ferrari's. The cube is so good at providing passenger space, headroom, cargo capacity and utility that it can't be beat. Here function trumps form.
And everything else:http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/
Today... At this point in time, the 11,285 members of WFF owe $270,840,000 in the financial services bailout. That number does not include your spouses, children, friends or neighbors.
so we all owe roughly $24,000 for something the public screamed at congress not to do. joy
remember, we hired these dolts (congress). they're supposed to work for us. what the hell are they doing, and who are they working for now? i have my ideas about what's going on... but apparently it makes me a "conspriacy theorist." :hmmm:
This is the largest transfer of wealth in history.
" and who are they working for now ? "
Answer: It's not you...
This country is on the edge of the precipise. The same actors that deregulated the financial services/banking sector in the Clinton era are on there way back to Washington.
G Edward Griffin is fantastic. his book "The Creature From Jeckyll Island" is a book that really opened my eyes to a lot of things. I think anyone who wants to understand our system should read it. But I've found that if you do your homework and read a lot, then come to a conclusion that isn't part of the "official story," you're labeled a wack job conspiracy theorist. go figure
I can't believe that this industry will go away if we do not bail them out. If they go Chapter 11 it will force them to re evaluate how they do business, and scuttle their union contracts.
My personal belief is that people need to take responsibility - and that includes management and unions. Shareholders, unions and management should have been looking 10 - 50 years down the road - looking at trends and innovation and forcing that direction, even if it meant short term pain and no immediate gain. Instead everyone lined up to the feeding trough and feasted. The fact that the CEOs flew to DC without a plan - just with their hands open - tells me that they are not responsible leaders.
Those of us that own and run our own companies generally have no sympathy for this level of management. We rely on all people connected with our business to help us grow, and to look for solutions. We need to adapt to stay alive. It is something that American management, and American workers, have forgotten - and that is why we cannot compete in the global marketplace. Foreign car manufactures tend to build companies that will last generations. Our auto industry just looks to the next quarter.
Ultimately, we live in a quasi-free market society (with select groups like farmers to ranchers to drug companies getting government subsidies). We have impressed to the rest of the world that this is the best system. And in that world there will be winners and losers. We loosing right now because people - in general - want instant gratification - they have forgotten what it is like to suffer - they want a 40 hour work week and be able to drive a new pick-up every two years and have a driveway with a boat and four-wheeler in it. Meanwhile, people in other countries are one generation removed from being in a place where starvation was real. They work 60 + hours a week, because that is the way that they are hard-wired. And at the end of the day they thank their boss for their job instead of giving them crap for cutting their break by five-minutes.
Like I said, "And in that world there will be winners and losers." Which is fine - because someone needs to ask the question, "Sir, would you like fries with that?"
I'm surprised that with all the stuff herein about the 3 US car companies and their "poor quality, too large, poor gas milage, etc. vehicles" being the reason they aren't selling that not a person has reported the fact that all car companies selling cars in the US have seen sales drop be between 22% and 38% in September and October. Yes, even the Honda and Toyota wonder cars of Japan has seen sales drop, Honda down 24% and Toyota down 22% in October. Clearly there is more going on than just the vehicles being produced by the US car makers, since their sales are down in October the same as the imports.
I'm also suprised there hasn't been anyone mention Germany putting together a bailout for BMW, Mercedes, and Porche/Audi/VW because the worlwide sales of their vehicles has dropped over 30%.
As far as US makers not producing cars with decent gas milage, what about cars like the Ford Focus, Chevy Cavalier, Chevy Cobalt, Dodge Caliber, etc. All of these get over 30 MPG. Heck, even the Corvette gets decent milage (and lots of power and performance that is world-class too boot) of 25 MPG on the hwy. Chrysler's 300 C (and the Dodge Charger R/T and Challenger R/T) with the 5.7L Hemi (it now has 370 bph) gets 25 MPG, which is in the same league as the Hond Accord and Camry V6.
Plus, if one has a need to a pickup that can tow or haul a trailer, carry a load, or carry a pickup camper, one needs a truck that has a tow capacity higher than 5,000 lbs and a load capacity of 2,000 lbs or more. And the only import truck that will fit the bill for tow capacity is the Toyota Tundra (it doesn't cut it for load capacity though since it is a 1/2 ton), and it only gets 16 MPG, which is less than the US full-sized trucks with gasoline engines. The smaller trucks won't do the job. Some of the smaller ones might be able to pull the load if the tow weight is 5,000 lbs and they are equipped with the largest offered V6, but stopping could be a totally different story. And if one is going to put a pickup camper on his truck, a 3/4 ton is pretty much needed to have sufficient load capacity and axle strength so one doesn't overtax the rear axles, wheel studs, and springs. Since there are no imported 3/4 ton pickups, it leaves the US makers.
Like some others have mentioned, I drive two supposedly poor quality vehicles. A 1987 Dodge 3/4 ton 4x4 pickup that has over 360,000 miles on it (I put a new engine in it last November because the rest of the truck is in fine shape and a new engine is a lot cheaper than a new truck). Granted it doesn't get the greatest gas mileage, but it is a 3/4 truck with a 4 barrel carburated engine. And I can buy a lot of gas with the difference between the $3200.00 it cost me to have a new engine put in that has a 7 yr, 70,000 mile warrenty and the price of a new truck.
The other is a 1989 Jeep Cherokee with 264,000 miles on it that doesn't burn oil, has cylinder compression within specs, and that I put a new clutch in this August. I maintain them with 3,000 mile oil and filter changes. regular washings, treat them to a once a year wax job with Dupont New Finish (recommended by the manager of a body shop I know), change the gear oil in the axles every 40,000, flush the radiator every 2 years, change the transfer case oil every 40,000, change the manual trans oil in the Jeep every 50,000 and change the auto trans fluid in the Dodge pickup every 30,000. Both of these will go many more miles, expecially the Dodge with its new engine.
Just want to make a few points about wages and legacy costs. The CEO of toyota makes about 1mil a year, the big 3 CEO'S make 15-20 mill.
The workers have dedicated funds contributed to pension and health plans, the Ceo's & upper management do not, thier costs come off the top. when they figure their legacy cost they lump them all together so it is skewed toward insolvency.
If the health care coverage is costing them so much, why have they not jumped on the national health care band wagon? We, the american people pay close to 7k per capita for health care, ( twice as much as most industrialized nations), so guys like Bill Frist can make billions.
The republicans are lickn' their chops cause they can finally bust the UAW. The rise of the middle class was directly related to the rise of labor unions. When Ronald Reagan took office the US was the world leader in exporting finished goods, the leading importer of raw materials and the worlds leading creditor nation. Now after 28 yrs of supply side economics, those numbers are reversed. We are the leading debtor,exporter of raw materials and importer of finished goods. By the way, Ronnie ( that union bustn' SOB) was at one time the head of the screen actors guild.
Someone needs to grab hank paulson by the short hairs and tell him to loan some of that money to the big 3. Then grab the big 3 by the short hairs and tell them to start trimming some fat and build some high milage cars. I'm sure the Unions will come to the table, if it means their jobs.
We have dug ourselves a big ass hole, and it's not going to be fun digging out, everyone will have to feel some pain. So stay involved, " The price of apathy in public affairs, is to be ruled by EVIL MEN".
well it must be getting bad, they cut tiger woods 8,000,000 endorsement contract for standing in front of buicks. but, it won't be really bad until they shut off the billions going to nascar. when that happens, we should all be prepared for change.
I have follow this post closely and have read some very good thoughts and ideas. So here is my 2cents and I have been in the Auto industry since 1996. Were is the technology that we all know exists? We all know the gas Company's are making record profits per quarter 13 to 25 billion in three months? Why? For years the Big Three have been in the sheets with the oil company's burying technology or recommending specific oil company's products on your gas caps. Talk about conspiracy this is the biggest fleecing of America. Why don't the Oil company's Bailout the Auto industry, That has made them so rich, just a thought.
Just another log for the fire. Damn it's getting warm!
Peace Out & Tight Lines,