Steelhead fishing\conservation question?

Discussion in 'Steelhead' started by Steelheadjunky, Feb 5, 2007.

  1. TomB

    TomB Active Member

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    Salmo- you stated

    "We don't know if the integrated hatchery concept will be sustainable or not. Hypothetically, it should be..."

    according to an article in Conservation Genetics published a few years back, precisely the opposite of what you said was shown theoretically...that is to say, on a per generation basis, while egg to fry/smolt survival is theoretically much higher in a hatchery environment, overall stock productivity is lower. The paper essentially supported through mathematical theory, the argument that nature can produce greater overall survival/fitness than any hatchery can. The only exception was in cases where captive brood stock could be used for a small number of generations while habitat was repaired.

    The integrated hatchery idea has been put forward (like regular hatcheries were in the past) with virtually zero empirical support for their viability. While there is much that is still unknown about this subject, to me, the safe gamble is to rely on the evolutionary processes which have allowed our native salmonids to survive for millenia rather than on our artificial production programs.

    I can provide a .pdf of the article if you are interested.
    tight lines.
    -Thomas
     
  2. TomB

    TomB Active Member

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    Ibn- While i can't speak for JJ, i think his point may be that he is merely frustrated with what he percieves to be a large body of passionate steelheaders who seem to be equally dispassionate about the conservation and science. I doubt his intention was to intimidate or antagonize anyone.

    On this topic, for those that have read Dec Hogan's new book, I can't help but admire Bill McMillan's opening essay. He describes how his passion for steelhead has evolved into an equal if not bigger passion for their conservation. To me, this is the essence of what steelheading should be. Obviously everyone has to define the experience for themselves, but on the same token, without conservation, there will be no steelhead for us to fish for in the future.

    I am rambling now, but this is all food for thought. Indulge me.

    -Thomas
     
  3. Steelheadjunky

    Steelheadjunky Member

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    Ok my tone was probably bad and it came out of frustration. I apologize for that. Lets see if I can ask this in a better way that some that can get productive conversation going.

    1) Do people feel, that use this fishery, that they are supporting what the quinalts are doing and continuation?
    2) Do people continue to support places, cities, and shops that support the kill of wild fisheries or that support others that support the kill of wild fishery?
    3) Do people that fish for steelhead feel a responsibility to get involved.

    Tom hit the nail on the head.

    I hope that I was able to be none threatening way as I would like good conversation on this topic.

    JJ
     
  4. softwaterstructure

    softwaterstructure Banned or Parked

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    because steelhead have been declining and facing so many perils for as long as fishermen have pursued them, steelheaders are very passionate fishermen who are just as passionate about the conversation of the fish they love.

    however many a modern day steelheader is not a steelheader in the truest sense of the word. they are trout fishermen who grabbed a handful of glo-bugs, beads and prince nymphs and started catching fish without any regard to the responsibilities that come with territory of being a steelheader.
     
  5. gt

    gt Active Member

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    i have no idea about what the quinalt's do or don't do so i have choosen to remain silent on this specific issue.

    i can say that i use techniques that are pleasing to me and at the same time raise the odds in favor of the fishes. i have no need to try and modify my techniques in order to cover ever inch of water, after all the fish need some resting places. i don't kill any longer, safeway is right down the road. i choose to fish and spend time with those who think, believe and act in similar fashion to myself. by doing that, i don't have to throw rocks at the others.

    if anyone has specific data on the quinalt hatchery practices, it would be enlightening to read about what they are attempting to accomplish, or not. as many of you already know from past posts, however, i really don't support hatchery frankenfish of any flavor as a general 'management' philosophy, WDFW, the quinalts or whomever.
     
  6. Will Atlas

    Will Atlas Guest

    softwater,
    While I agree that the steelhead flyfishing community is more diverse than ever, I dont think your characterization is necessarily accurate. I dont think the way people present a fly to the fish is necessarily an accurate gauge of how someone conducts themselves in terms of conservation. My time in the sport is admittedly short as I am a young man just getting started, however I have observed what I would characterize as a prevailing trend of short cut taking. It seems to me our society is full of short cuts and how your average angler approaches fishing is simply a relfection of that.

    One last point. While I was not fishing for steelhead in the "good old days" when men were men and steelheaders were steelheaders in the truest sense of the word, I cant be sure. But is it possible that the present state of the steelhead flyfishing community is simply a relfection of a shift in popular angling culture? So while 20 years ago many anglers had the same values/priorities as now, most of them were gear anglers, so flyfishermen could feel superior. Look I love flyfishing for steelhead as much as the next guy, and while I tend to put the past on a pedestal, I dont think its always warranted. Besides, on the bright side, we all know flyfishermen catch less steelhead than gear guys....so more fish for you right?:beer2:

    Tightlines,

    Will

    Gt- check out the www.nativefishsociety.org there is a ton of information on there regarding hatchery v. wild and even some info on integrated stock management.
     
  7. ibn

    ibn Moderator

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    Thanks for re-phrasing this.

    1. Yes. Let me explain. I fish with a quinalt native out there who is working to pay for the college tuition of himself and his girlfriend. He used to be a gill netter in the chehalis system. Now he only guides fly fishermen and he no longer keeps wild steelhead or even wild salmon. I understand your passion and concern for Steelhead as a whole, really I do, and I'm torn about how I feel. Here I have a friend of mine working for a living, doing something he has done for years, and to him, the program is working. I love to fish with him, and I love the area we fish, and I feel good supporting him. The way the Quinalt Nation measures success is likely much different then how you and I do.

    I don't support the netting of fish, especially on waters that don't reside on tribal land. At the same time, I can't ignore the fact that we made a deal with them. As I've said before I can't speak for the Quinalt tribe, but I suspect they consider their program a success, I don't feel like it's our place to tell them what they're doing is wrong. Perhaps a dumb question, have you, or do you know if they have been approached and presented with information about steelhead production plan and their impact on wild fish?

    2. I would say no to this as well, while I have not been to forks in years, if I had to stay the night there, I would get a hotel and go out to eat. While I don't support killing of any wild fish, let alone wild steelhead, I am still human, and don't have a problem supporting other humans who happen to live in a town that supports killing steelhead. Can you expand on what places, cities, and shops support the killing of wild steelhead? The only one I am aware of is Forks.

    3. Any fishery we indulge in we should help support.
     
  8. softwaterstructure

    softwaterstructure Banned or Parked

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    please then, let us know who this man is. it sounds like this could be a guide worth supporting out there.
     
  9. ibn

    ibn Moderator

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    He's not a site sponsor, so I am not going to post his information publicly. I have passed his information on privatley to some members of this site in the past.

    Another interesting and perhaps ironic point about him, he's going to school with the intent of getting involved with fisheries managment, and he's worked in their hatcheries in highschool.
     
  10. Will Atlas

    Will Atlas Guest

    he could probably fill in alot of the gaps about exactly what goes on. I've got to say, having lived out there, the natives dont like being lectured about how bad their fisheries management is, and rightfully so. While I dont agree with all of what they do, I think finger pointing is a common symptom in white anglers, and any criticism should be tactful and well thought out. remember, to them, we're new on the scene, and it didnt get f'ed up until we came.
     
  11. softwaterstructure

    softwaterstructure Banned or Parked

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    i see references made to, links posted of guides, shops etc. that are not site sponsors. it has not stopped anybody in the past. or do we have to be 'invited' just to get his name and number?????
     
  12. ibn

    ibn Moderator

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    Given the tone of your posts, I certainly would not give it to you.
     
  13. Nailknot

    Nailknot Active Member

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    Everybody laughs at WA.
     
  14. Steelie Mike

    Steelie Mike Active Member

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    This is the tone that Ibn was referring to that indicates why people that fish the Quinalt fisheries do not want to speak up knowing it will start out in an argument. If you look back on the history of steelheading and examined some of the greatest steelheaders of this decade you would notice that there are a lot of great steelheaders that used their own variety of nymphs to fish for these magical fish that we are having this debate about. Kauffman, Wickwire, Garrett, Hall, and Jackson to name a few.

    1.) The fact of the matter is the Quinalt Nation is not doing anything with there fisheries that is not practiced throughout the Pacific Northwest. Yes they commercially fish there waters in their native range, but there is also a commercial fishing fleet out there that fish for these same fish before they get to tribal waters. Native fish are getting killed by them too.

    If there is a failure of the Quinalt Nation to enforce the proper clipping of adipose fins on their fish then it is also the fault of the Fisheries Management Council and Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife for enforcing these rules. It was my understanding that in accordance to the Boldt Decision the State of Washington has a co-equal regulatory management of propagation of the fishery.

    So YES, I support the Quinalt fishery. Do I agree with all the facets of the management of the fishery? NO, but I also do not agree with the management and enforcement of a lot of fisheries in the state. Due to budget cuts on all end of the management of out native recourses we are seeing a failure in the system to protect out native resources.

    2.) Again I do not support the killing of our natural resources. However it is a failure in the system and not a failure for the city of Forks, Amanda Park, etc for this. If the Fish and Wildlife Commission took a stronger stance on saving our precious native steelhead with the support of the Endangered Species Act then we would not be discussion this portion of your argument. Also the native tribes were not for this discussion thinking that it would bring more resentment of their fisheries management.

    3.) Yes I feel a responsibly to get involved and yes I have written letters in the past to fish and wildlife and tried to get involved in organizations. I love steelheading and I find it more and more a passion outside of my family and work life. In my spare time I try to educate myself about out native species, range, management, etc so that I can become more of a conservationist, steward of the land and fisherman.

    As much as I would like to get involved in the Native Fish Society and more conservation efforts I find myself torn between family, work and releasing my stress in life by yes fishing. These days I get involved by being a steward of the land, treating native fish with respect and dignity, picking up trash and gear on the side of the river as well as trying to educate others of the importance of the same.
     
  15. Steelheadjunky

    Steelheadjunky Member

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    ibn,

    I only have a minute this morning and will try to post more later this afternoon. But I Fly Fishing only guide that won't kill wild fish (assuming he makes it clear and won't guide anyone that wants to kill wild fish) this is definately something we should support and I know SWS had a bad tone (the one I was trying to change) and is a bit of off base. But at least the first part of his statement was true. There are lots of non site sponsor that get mentioned all the time shops and guides. I really think that you should post his name and information so if people are going out there that they can support someone that has these values. I am sure Chris wouldn't mind.

    JJ