Steelhead: Will hatchery hook up with a Native? I'd lik...

Discussion in 'Steelhead' started by Richard Torres, Jul 14, 2003.

  1. Wildram007

    Wildram007 Guest

    Steelhead: Will hatchery hook up with a Native? I'd...

    Damn the powers that be for the solutions they impose upon us... damn ourselves for not doing anything about it.
    Overcompensating for deforestation, dams, pollution and overharvesting with hatchery fish in rivers is alot like fixing a rotting, leaky roof with smartly placed brick after brick (or, like when Burt complained he couldn't sleep over the sound of dripping water, and Ernie turns on the vacuum cleaner so Burt won't hear the drip anymore). Band-aid solutions are only temporary. They don't treat the cause, they just cover up the result so it looks and feels a little better.
    Let's say you've got a kid eating 10 exquisite meals a day (deforestation), your neighbor slashes your tires every morning (dams - prevents you from getting where you need to go to make a living), your other kid is smoking crack(pollution) and the wife is at the mall every day (overharvesting). Is another new line of credit, with interest of course, really the answer? More and more, resulting in relatively less and less, with a foundation that is whithering away all the while is a recipe for disaster.
    There is tons of info out there on the inferiority of hatchery fish and their threat to wild populations (we're just as much or more of a threat - but what is a hatchery fish? It's a product of US.) To answer the question (finally), do a wild/native fish a favor - eat a hatchery fish. And consider having anybody who takes the world around us for their gain, and our loss, for dessert.
    :smokin
     
  2. Wildram007

    Wildram007 Guest

    Steelhead: Will hatchery hook up with a Native? I'd...

    Thanks Ray for the concrete info. Sounds like a perpetuated cycle of diminishing returns to me.
    I think I'll put water in my gas to save money (I guess some people need it more and more of it than I do)and take off my head gasket to save weight (I couldn't live without my camp-stove toaster) so I can make it to Colorado...
    Of course, I wouldn't make it down 156th to I-90 at that rate...
    The insanity.
     
  3. ray helaers

    ray helaers Active Member

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    That's a fair and a smart question. The trouble is, it is almost impossible to track those 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generation hatchery progeny (technically possible but logistically and economically impracticable).

    One thing we do know from controlled experiments with other types of organisms is that the small types of genetic maladaptations that cause the reduced fitness can become regressive (remember that the hatchery fish are still reproducing at relatively high rates, just not as well as the wild fish), and then later expressed in ways that could be disasterous for the population as a whole, particularly if it is already stressed (sound like any steelhead populations you know?) Keep in mind that a HEALTHY, stable steelhead population is replacing itself at just over a 1 to 1 ratio. Recent work has suggested that the timetable for the maladaptations to work themselves out of a population is slightly longer than it will take the population to go extinct as a result of the maladaptations.

    Now that is just theoretical, but how much additional risk should we be prepared to subject our salmon and steelhead populations to, just so we can have better fishing? And that isn't even taking into consideration the immediate risk of those 1st generation hatchery fish, on populations that are currently in decline, many threatened with extinction.

    I'm afraid I have not much patience with the argument that since science isn't perfect, then I don't have to pay attention to scientific evidence that is inconvenient for me or my position, even when it is the preponderance of the evidence. That is the tobacco industry's argument.("Show me where a man gets his cornpone, and I'll tell you what his opinion is," Mark Twain.)

    Science probably can't and hasn't "proven" that going out in the sun will give you skin cancer, so why bother with the hat and the sunscreen?
     
  4. BOBLAWLESS

    BOBLAWLESS New Member

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    I don't intend to debate the merits of scientific studies over no studies at all. Science is my god. I don't believe in much else. But god does goof up a lot for being a god and all.
    Genetic mixing of steelhead stocks has been going on since the beginning of time. The Columbia, the mother of it all, used to have so many wild fish in it that they strayed everywhere, even to California. The idea that each fish returns to the exact spot it was born in is, to say the least, bunk.
    But this straying of hatchery fish, and indeed they do stray, is wrecking havoc on the species. Priceless strains of fish are being completely destroyed. Fish that know how to ascend a river system are being lost so that the river system is not being fully utilized. And so on. Makes my head hurt; my heart sick. I going to have a little wine or something.
    Bob, the Heart Sick:beathead :beathead
     
  5. Richard Torres

    Richard Torres Active Member

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    Thanks for your valuable input Ray. This helps with my research. I'll be honest with my opinion, I just think that if the fisheries departments (Oregon or Washington) are wasting the salmon or steelhead, I think that they could be put to better use( Instead process the salmon for fertilizer ). Sure, I think that killing a hatchery steelhead that isn't going to die, like a salmon would, is a waste of our tax dollars. Yes I wouldn't hesitate to kill one to take home for my family, plus that's one less fish that will jepordize our fragile native stock.
    Tight lines!
     
  6. BOBLAWLESS

    BOBLAWLESS New Member

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    Remember that historically, spawned out salmon or steelhead died in the river and helped to start a whole chain of events that led to fertile rivers with plenty to eat for the smolts.
    They (our guys, you know the good guys) won't toss the fish back into the river because river side people complain that the dead fish stink.
    Maybe they won't, but I will. All hatchery jobs will be chucked back in to help out with this age old process. I encourage others to follow suit. It's tough love, but what else makes sense?
    And, I would withdraw that statement you made about nothing could change your mind. Not a pretty thought for a budding young scholar. Also, who wants to write to someone who refuses to change?
    Bo, the Dazed
     
  7. hikepat

    hikepat Patrick

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    Lets see if I got this straight. The people who live on the river do not like the smell of the dead fish. If we throw back the dead fish many of them might not want to live by the river no more. If enough of the humans do not want to buy houses by the river the price for those homes would go down. If they go down enough the land could be bought up and turned into wild places again. I am liking this thought process already. If we do this enough maybe we would get our rivers back for all to use. Of course by then would there be any wild fish left to enjoy it. Oh well the dream in my head this set off was nice for a moment. Thank you.:beer1
     
  8. Richard Torres

    Richard Torres Active Member

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    Bob,
    I'm still learning about what I love to catch! LOL..
    It does always help to know your information first before making sound judgement. Right now this is just a homework assignment for me. The rough draft is due Tuesday afternoon. I learn something new every day from this wonderful site and, hopefully when I finish this essay, all of you will enjoy or critiqe what I have to say.
    Yeah, I do agree that they should throw the caracasses back out for the little guys. It doesn't bother me and they need all the help they can get. Hikepat, I like that Idea of purchasing the land back. First I need to win the powerball lottory! LOL
    Tight lines! :thumb
     
  9. Bob Triggs

    Bob Triggs Stop Killing Wild Steelhead!

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    Does a chicken have lips?!
     
  10. Randy Knapp

    Randy Knapp Active Member

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    Yes. But the only good hatchery fish is one in my stomach and this from a guy who used to release them.

    Randy


    " When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee" Isaiah 43:2
     
  11. BOBLAWLESS

    BOBLAWLESS New Member

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    But remember, Randy, you can buy your food.
    Smolts can't (no money).
    And the reason they have no money is because they have no pockets. Plus, fisherman tips for putting up a good fisght are very few and rather smallish. Banks are almost nonexsistent and jobs have been slow since Dubya took over.
    Bob, the Fish Spokesperson.
    :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes
     
  12. Old Man

    Old Man Just an Old Man

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    I forgot what I was supposed to remember.

    Well after reading all of this info on fish spawning with each other. My brain is so much filled with what I don't know that I feel that I shouldn't even fish anymore. I feel that I'm not making much sense. Like most of these articles.

    There's so many pro's and con's on this subject.It boggles the mind trying to read and understand it all. I
    think that I will just quit it all.

    Jim