The Earth Is Bleeding...

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by dryflylarry, May 14, 2010.

  1. Jim Wallace

    Jim Wallace Smells like low tide.

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2004
    Messages:
    5,959
    Likes Received:
    738
    Location:
    Cranberry Country...a glorified coastal swamp!
    constructuer, You must realize that I am merely guessing here. Feeling helpless to do anything, yet still observing in horror. Trying to avoid getting more cynical and pissed off.
    I'm not fishing today because of a toothache.

    Ahhh, I'm going for a walk on the beach.
     
  2. Paul Huffman

    Paul Huffman Lagging economic indicator

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2004
    Messages:
    1,452
    Likes Received:
    226
    Location:
    Yakima, WA.
    Home Page:


    F-ing Booming!
     
  3. Split Bamboo

    Split Bamboo Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2006
    Messages:
    648
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Tacoma, Washington
    Clearly a Senator from Alaska would receive large donations from the oil industry, just as the Senators from LA and TX receive large contributions. Both Democrat and Republicans take contributions.

    I did not look at this current bill, but the comments made by Sen. Murkowski was that this bill would unfairly burden small oil companies and create an advantage for the large companies. There seems to be some logic in that statement as the large companies can afford to pay huge fines whereas the smaller ones could be put out of business. I think the current limits on liabilities is too low for the large companies and something should be changed. But rushing a bill through Congress at this time won't solve the current mess, so why not take the time to get it right...not that Congress ever really does that.

    The other comment I wanted to make it that there was discussion on a boycott of BP. Boycott can work in some situations, but oil is one of the most fungible products that exists, and a boycott would have little if any affect on BP, but would probably have a negative impact on the independent gas station operators.
     
  4. Go Fish

    Go Fish Language, its a virus

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2006
    Messages:
    1,354
    Likes Received:
    182
    Location:
    Rheomode, Wa.
    To limit liability on big oil is a joke.

    What other businesses have limited
    liability from the US Government?

    Drug companies?
    Auto industry?
    Insurance?
    General Electric?
    General Mills?
    Dildo Manufacturers?


    Just one folks....

    Big Oil.

    As we look at 3 more months or more of oil spewing into the Gulf
    I want to puke. With such a risky well why weren't additional safeguards taken....

    We all know that answer.

    $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


    Dave
     
  5. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Messages:
    17,942
    Likes Received:
    2,245
    Location:
    Kitsap Peninsula
    Day 44 now. 31% of the Gulf of Mexico’s fishing area (US regulated) is now closed. Those fishermen, families and communities that their money support are struggling more now than ever.

    BP and the US Government are no longer cozy and doing joint press releases. Has the administration realized that this is a bigger deal than BP wanted us all to believe from the beginning?

    If we trust BP’s low end estimate of 10,000 barrels leaking a day we are now at 440,000 barrels, that is 18,480,000 gallons (nearly 18.5 million barrels). If we trust independent professionals that have no fiscal link to BP and their worst case scenario number of up to 200,000 barrels a day, that is 880,000 barrels or 369,600,000 (over 369 million gallons). Of course these two numbers are way apart; even splitting the difference puts this environmental catastrophe at 194 million gallons of oil spilled. (1 barrel = 42 US gallons)

    There has been oil reported on the shores of barrier islands and land in Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and unconfirmed reports of Texas. I guess Florida can expect to be next.

    Has there been an economic impact? I dare anyone to attempt to convince those fishermen, families or communities there has be no noticeable economic impact. Hell, try convincing anyone with a pulse that is not in bed with BP.

    Has there been environmental impact? Of course, the extent of which BP will pay to study for the next decade, or so they say. We won’t know for a while how bad the damage is or for how long it will linger. Some wounds heal faster than others.

    Has there been an impact to the fisheries? With 31% closed, of course there has been. Have they begun to realize the extent of the actual impact on the various species in the gulf? No way, they can’t even stop the damn leak.

    Day 44, still no end in site. Relief well drilling still underway, relief still more than 30 days from reality. The earth is still bleeding. What is next BP? How about from you Mother Nature? Hurricane anyone?
     
  6. dryflylarry

    dryflylarry "Chasing Riseforms"

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2003
    Messages:
    4,141
    Likes Received:
    656
    Location:
    Near the Fjord
    If you all note:

    The ad on this page "BP Spill -Blame Obama?" This is an ad from "Newsmax Magazine" and website that is unabashedly right-wing bias and for people that love Russ Limbaughs, etc. I don't think it should be on this site, particularly on this thread. It offends me. This is a BP screwup, period! I wish you would take it off Chris. Thank you.
     
  7. FE427TP

    FE427TP The Great Sage

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Southwest WA
    That's right, no opinion that differs from your liberal ideology, "it's offensive" bawling: So we can have and support your left wing ideology, but not right wing dissenting viewpoints? :rofl: excellent idea comrade, President Wilson and Joseph Goebbels and many other progressive socialists would be proud of your "my view is correct regardless of the facts and all others need censored" viewpoint.

    This is not a Bush problem. It was supervisors retained and intentionally not replaced by the Obama administration who approved the permit to drill, not the Bush administration. And to head off the inevitable whine, I dislike former President Bush's actions as president. The Kenyan has stated HE takes responsibility for it as he should considering that his employees approved the drilling which started more than a year after he took office in Feb 2010, 17 months after he was elected to put a stop to it but he didn't, clearly Bush's fault :rolleyes:. BP hired drillers and have taken responsibility for the bad results from the actions of their employees whom they approved, Obama is responsible for the actions of his employees who he's had 16 months to replace but has chosen not to, he is top dog responsible for his employees actions. He has taken full responsibility in statement since Day 1 for how the spill is being handled approving or denying attempts and ideas to stop it, it's success or failure has been in President Obama's hands. Now he's inviting movie producers in as experts to stop the leak, what a joke of successful leadership.

    And some other people have talked about the damage to the economy from the fishermen being able to in only 66% of the gulf of Mexico not 100% . Reconsider your stance. Which will damage the economy more; the collapse of fishermen who were already overfishing the gulf to the point of non sustainability at the edge of poverty during a GOOD fishing season in your words (Mumbles... (as an example but the following remarks are not meant as an attack on you)), who are taking more tax money through collecting on social programs than they are generating before this happened; or roughnecks making $50k+ a year, the guys not working at poverty level in the refineries, the shipping industries transporting the oil by land or sea making 50k-120k+ a year, the people who run and work at the support industries, the food, the barges, the tugboats, the ironworkers making the platforms the guys who make and deliver the pipe used to drill miles under the surface, these guys and their families who have money and who are the ones paying the taxes from oil money that keep the schools open, pave the roads, fund the local govt., provide the money the state uses for welfare collected by the fishermen that feeds their children, and provided the money the government was supposed to have used to purchase emergency response supplies but didn't. Who's money buys the shrimp and fish the fishermen catch, fishermen at the edge of poverty or the people making a good living in the oil industry and it's associated industry's? How much better off will the fishing industry be when the price of the fuel for their boats goes up due to more demand than supply? If you want to see the economy truly collapse and see hardships by the people of that region, do more to eliminate these oil jobs and their tax money and let the out of work fishermen on the verge of poverty support themselves and the rest of the economy while out of work, brilliant idea :thumb: Take a look at Cuba's EEZ map for the Gulf of Mexico, China and Russia are negotiating for rights to drill in the Gulf of Mexico, and us stopping drilling only makes it a more lucrative investment to them, who will have better ecological and safety regulation, us or the people sending our children toys with lead paint?

    The fish will be/have been affected, but I hope we can both agree that with the media's desire to in general regardless of political side or the particular subject of a story to sensationalize stories to generate more readership for their column and money for their employer. With that in mind the question should be arising in all our minds, where are the pictures of dead fish washing up on shore? Where are the images of dead fish floating in the water? This was all over the news for the Exxon Valdez spill and this one is wayyyy bigger than that now. The fishing was not closed because of dead fish.

    Someone I know of who works in the oil industry posted on another forum i frequent (not an oil industry forum but he was the RKI for our questions) that with most new wells and even existing wells that are shut down for maintenance there is so much sand and aggregate that comes through the pipe on start-up that it's not uncommon to see internal erosion through the pipe wall, and that any valve on a new well that had been running wide fucking open for the last 40 days would be eroded away to the point of being non functional.
     
  8. Ed Call

    Ed Call Mumbling Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Messages:
    17,942
    Likes Received:
    2,245
    Location:
    Kitsap Peninsula
    An economic system based on capitalism works best when everyone is working. What is your flipping point? Still clinging to the political blame game so that the industry has lesser shame in their failure to contain their problem in their never ending search for exploitation of the earth. No regard for the environment, economy or anything other than padding their profit line. I don't feel attacked by you. I'm not convinced. You can cry about Bush or Obama, who cares about that? There is a hole in the earth with oil pouring out oil and it is wrecking way more than either of us realize. I could give a crap about your buddy on the oil forum, if the problem is not fixed then we still have a problem. The longer the problem persists then the greater the damage, deeper the reach and the longer for any type of recovery.
     
  9. dryflylarry

    dryflylarry "Chasing Riseforms"

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2003
    Messages:
    4,141
    Likes Received:
    656
    Location:
    Near the Fjord
    FE427TP

    My post was regarding the politics being left out of the Fly Fishing Forum (since you are a "newbie, you wouldn't know that) because threads get shut down on here often enough when people start talking politics unrelated to fishing, but I have been found guilty as well. I was upset because of the political ad posted on here. I found it to be unusual and bad taste, (I'm surprised there wasn't a mustache painted on Obama's face) but that's my liberal opinion. Tough shitski huh? By the way, you WILL see dead fish....
     
  10. smc

    smc Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2005
    Messages:
    507
    Likes Received:
    208
    Location:
    Up River
    Ah, so you're a birther. This explains alot. You had me wondering for a while... How could someone be such an RKI, so correct, and be so damn wrong, at the same time? I guess, ultimately there are some things, and people, that just can't be explained. Like hitler, child molesters and birthers.

    Pretty long winded but I think what you're saying is: the oil spill is just the 1st phase? First poison the low income population with petroleum distillates then finish the job with lead painted toys from China?

    This is my favorite. Insinuating that the fisheries were closed for political reasons. Well, of course they were, at least in part. Everything is political these days, including poison fish and shrimp.

    OK, I take the above back. This one is really my favorite! Now, instead of absolving BP, you're trying to martyr them! BP did hire Trans Ocean and Halliburton, and BP directed them. That is to say, BP had final say on virtually every aspect of that drilling operation. It wasn't just the employees they "approved", it was their actions. And, it remains to be seen if BP will actually take responsibility for this.

    Here's some fine examples of Tony Hayward & BP taking responsibility: http://www.newsweek.com/2010/06/02/what-not-to-say-when-your-company-is-ruining-the-world-.html

    On April 29, The New York Times reported that Hayward, apparently exasperated, turned to fellow executives in his London office and asked, “What the hell did we do to deserve this?" (A possible answer might be the company's 760 safety violations over the last three years. ExxonMobil, in contrast, has had just one.)

    On May 14, Hayward attempted to persuade The Guardian that "the Gulf of Mexico is a very big ocean. The amount of volume of oil and dispersant we are putting into it is tiny in relation to the total water volume."

    Only a few days later, he told Sky News that "the environmental impact of this disaster is likely to be very, very modest." That might surprise the many scientists who see the spill as a true environmental calamity, the full extent of which remains unclear.

    On May 30, Hayward was less bullish and decided to play the sympathy card. He told the Today show that "there’s no one who wants this over more than I do. I would like my life back."

    On May 31, he told the world that ecosystem-threatening underwater oil plumes—consisting of droplets of partially dissolved oil suspended in water that many scientists have observed—do not exist. He said simply, "There aren't any plumes."

    On June 1, Hayward responded to claims that cleanup workers were being sickened by the fumes from the oil they were exposed to by suggesting another possible, non-oil-spill cause. When nine workers fell ill, according to Yahoo News, he told CNN that "food poisoning is clearly a big issue."
     
  11. Lugan

    Lugan Joe Streamer

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2005
    Messages:
    3,238
    Likes Received:
    2,120
    Location:
    Beautiful View, WA
    Mother of All That is Holy, could we stop this now?

    OK...maybe one more. Here is Obama's Facebook feed related to the BP disaster: http://www.slate.com/id/2255749/
     
  12. Kent Lufkin

    Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2004
    Messages:
    7,175
    Likes Received:
    1,267
    Location:
    Not sure
    This thread has long outlived its original intent or usefulness. Let's lock it down now.

    K
     
  13. Be Jofus G

    Be Jofus G Banned or Parked

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,051
    Likes Received:
    53
    Location:
    Washington
    Then don't read it. Every one is being relativly civil man. There's nothing wrong with people being pissed about this. This is definatly fishing related. It's aready f-ed up some of my fishing plans for the summer, and possibly the fishing plans of the last 10-20 years of my life. Also, this WILL have an impact on fishing in the Pacific NW, and could have quite an impact on other PNW issues. Let's just hope the South eastern US population don't figure out how good BBQ salmon tastes.

    Any way, the only reason this happend under Obama's watch is because Gdub wasn't smart enough to figure out how to get around the regulations.
     
  14. dryflylarry

    dryflylarry "Chasing Riseforms"

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2003
    Messages:
    4,141
    Likes Received:
    656
    Location:
    Near the Fjord
    I'm going to find it interesting, when and IF .... they cap the well with the latest equipment and pipe, to see how long it takes to fill a tanker from above. That way, knowing the capacity of the tanker, we can easily determine the gallons pumping into the gulf as a MINIMUM. I don't know what the pressure loss is for pumping (or natural pressure is if it is rising on it's own) but the gallons per minute would certainly be less at the top of the ocean versus where it is leaking at the bottom with massive pressures. It should be an easy calculation once we figure the tanker capacity and when the next tanker pulls in to "fill up". So now, we wait to see if they can get the damn thing hooked up.... ( But BP already knows the gallons per minute and pressures at the leak already, I have no doubts...)
     
  15. Flyborg

    Flyborg Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2006
    Messages:
    2,387
    Likes Received:
    667
    Location:
    Kalama, WA
    tl;dr

    English motherfucker, do you speak it!?