Tribal netting

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by MasterAnglerTaylor, Jan 23, 2009.

  1. johnnyrockfish

    johnnyrockfish Member

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    Here's a suggestion. We offer the tribes control over the fisheries from the river mouth to the headwaters. In exchange they have to create a statewide tribal agency to enforce some agreed upon rules. 1) agree to reduce their their commercial harvesting 50% which should make 50% more fish available for recreational opportunities. 2) all guides are licensed by the tribal agency, with 25% of licenses reserved for non native guides.

    It puts all the tribes together and lets them figure out how to deal with each other instead of the state trying to patch things together piecemeal. It reduces the amount of fish being netted and it promotes more sport angling revenues for their respective tribes. Most importantly it puts them in charge of a fishery they appear to value so fervently and it does so on a level that makes them accountable to each other as tribes rather than just the State and Federal Government.

    I keep hearing how the government can't get it right, let's let the indians have a try.

    Too Crazy?

    JR
     
  2. Mel King

    Mel King Member

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    I was going to stay out of this. There's to many opinions mixed in with some facts and that always delutes the truth. Although I can agree with most of your ideas and have stated some of the same things myself, but I strongly disagree with your statment about CCA! It's been a slow process to turn decades of stupidity and greed around to looking at things from a common sense viewpoint and seeing that something has to change if there are going to be fish in 50 years. I don't know if your statment was based on your opinion or observation.
    I do attend the committee meetings and attended the senate NR commitee meeting on Jan 21,09 which was an invitation only testimony senate meeting. Represented was WDFW,A tribal rep, a netter rep,chater boat rep and CCA. At one point, Senator Jacobson(the man that is and has been the head of the fisheries commiteefor over 10 years and controls more final decisions than the director of WDFW) asked the temporary director of WDFW what they were doing about selective netting! That is CCA's main push and they have presented their case backed by scientific information and provable,undeniable truth. They have accomplished more in a very short time than anyone else to my knowledge, and they are gaining respect from everyone. I don't care if you dont support them but get your facts straight before you slam them, or perhaps get involved and see what you think!
    This is by no means a personal attack as I enjoy most of your posts but we all have to unite, get educated and support a group that can take it all the way and create lasting change based on the truth and common sense. It is happening but needs far more support.
    Get pesonally envolved,join and support a sportsmans group that is in alignment with your idealogy and write letters to your represenatives. They may not be biologists but they have to listen to what the majority wants or face not being re-elected.
    Thanks
    Mel
     
  3. Kent Lufkin

    Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

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    This is simply the best and most creative idea on the subject I've yet heard. Good job thinking JR.

    K
     
  4. James Mello

    James Mello Inventor of the "closed eye conjecture"

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    Couple of caveats. Abuses of the system are abuses and shouldn't be tolerated. And yes, nets have an impact!

    Quinaults and Yakima tribes would laugh you out of the room. As for the other tribes, since they aren't self regulating, they are already "managed" so to speak with the WDFW. In some cases, the relationship is good, and in others not so good. If you want to take a beef with anything, look at the bizzare-ly inflated estimates for returns that allow very high harvest levels. The latest example of this occured in the Grays Harbor harbor Chehalis river fisheries, and subsequent fish collapses.

    The tribes can only (in a legal manner) take 50% of the fish over the escapement goal. The rest has already been intercepted by nearshore net fisheries and other states and countries. The biggest/hardest thing for people to get over: By the time the nets are soaking, we've already done our damage to the run to the tune of 50% fish over escapement.

    Finally if you were proposed this scenario would you take it? As a sport fisherman/group of sport fishermen would you accept it? I don't know but a few souls who would and if you're in minority, then kudos to you :)
     
  5. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

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    Johnnyrockfish,

    I don't see anything attractive to the tribes in your proposal. They already have most of what you describe and then some. The only thing you're offering them is guide licensing fees, and that is far less than what you're asking them to give up. For an analogy consider this: here, I'll give you $25 and you give me $100. Fair enough, OK? Why do you think the tribes would be interested in your offer?

    James,

    Nearly all the treaty tribes are now self-regulating or have defacto self-regulating status. Johnnyrockfish's offer overlooks that the treaty tribes already have predominate control of anadromous fisheries in WA and expects them to give up some of their management authority to other oversite, including rival tribes.

    Sg
     
  6. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    whew.
    gt: "how about river mouth fish traps from which: a) an accurate count of allowable quota can be obtained and b) from which unclipped fish can be released unharmed and untouched.
    nets kill everything, no matter where they are set. " Hell yeah brother. now you're hearing me.
    Johnny Rockfish, getting waaaay out of the box...good on you. I think it would be a fox/henhouse scenario, but new ideas shouldn't be judged harshly till really examined.

    River Elf, bringing in some hardcore experience...and I know you know what you're talking about...yup, CCA is getting somewhere quietly, and we need to help. Lot of folks don't realize how ripe for change things are at this moment. There's three seats open on the Commission including the chair I believe, someone correct me if wrong.

    and Mr Mello, thanks for hitting the creamy center. Until returns can be precisely predicted with a high degree of confidence, (and will that ever happen?)-demonstrated by a track record of accuracy, harvest HAS to be dialed down to prevent stock collapse.

    when it comes to predicted vs actual returns vs harvest, the emperor has no clothes.

    BTW....all you gillnetters and tribals who monitor these threads, the CCA is coming for you. ;)Time to grow up.


    there's way more of us than there are of you.
     
  7. Salmo_g

    Salmo_g Active Member

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    Gee Spaz, you're not supposed to tip your hand. Do you play poker this well? You spoiled the ambush.

    Sg
     
  8. HauntedByWaters

    HauntedByWaters Active Member

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    So the deep and inherent issue is that we are asking them to give up what boils down to cash. Nobody wants to give up cash.

    So what you have to do is put some kind of long term project together that includes "fence months", true "fence months" that include sport anglers.

    Than you make the possible increase in fish returns in say 5 (or whatever) years theirs to cash in on. Before that opener we can open sports fishing for a couple seasons to get a more accurate view of their impact. And we pay close attention to the boat impacts if any.

    The goal at the very least is to establish a time of the year when these fish can do their thing unmolested by anybody. Only than can we have some kind of direction on how to manage all these interests.

    Just ideas.
     
  9. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    _G, I know nuthink...nuthink! Just an outsider's view...but the writing is on the wall, totally. I hope I at least gave someone the shivers for a second.

    There's no denying the momentum. Everyone knows the status quo is ending, choking on its own greed...and that fisheries science is rapidly outpacing the ability to obfuscate, PR it away, or deny the truth.
    so yeah, I'll just say it.

    Time to grow up.
    My future fishing day may be something like this:

    "Out of bed early, we'll be fishing the no-motor, selective fishery area on the Nisqually today, from Alder to Frank's Landing. Haven't decided where I'll put in yet, maybe at the new Peissner Rd boat launch or maybe the one further down at Nisqually Pines. Ever since the C&R section went to a one wild fish per year limit I've been avoiding the crowds and fishing farther up. MEAT fishermen, whuddayagonnado. After what's usually a six fish or so day, I'll head down to the Nisqually tribal co-op and pick up a hatchery fish for dinner, fresh from the trap. Wish they were a little cheaper, but then a half-dozen fulltime riverkeepers don't come cheap."

    there are win-win-win solutions, folks just need to adjust their ideas of what winning really is. Having a river full of wild fish, an intact and thriving native culture, a sustainable sport fishery, and rivers without conflict...yeah, it could happen.
    feel free to diss the dream if you want.


    do I get bonus points for using the word, "obfuscate"? :)
     
  10. johnnyrockfish

    johnnyrockfish Member

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    The incentive is that 75% of the guides are native and the fees for charters go back to them. Also, licenses to float or bank fish would also go to the tribes. Probably way to complicated but the traditional way of thinking isn't working so we need to brainstorm....

    The topic of the thread is Tribal Netting. If we try to solve every other problem (other countries fishing!!) at the same time we're going to move nowhere so we need to focus on the tribes. How can the tribes realize more $$$ from recreational fishing than netting? That, to me, is the nut we have to crack.

    JR
     
  11. Mel King

    Mel King Member

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    Spaz
    I don't know about the ripe part but I do feel that now is the closest to good things happening in a long time. We can only hope. With everyone feeling the numbers crunch and the reality that if something doesn't change fast,its over and the people who are responsible because of unimpecable deals,ignorance and greed and those that turned their heads to the truth don't want to be caught holding the bag. Time will tell. I do know CCA is right in there trying to make the transition happen without doing a bunch of name calling and finger pointing which is how change for the better will happen if it can.I hope their numbers continue to grow and more people get behind them so it can happen sooner than later.I know theres other groups and individuals involved that are also accomplishing great things but they aren't building big numbers of supporters. Everything helps.At some point we'll all come together and be glad we got involved.Imagine if sportsman,tribal and non-tribal netters and government got together how much could be accomplished! I'm dreaming but maybe someday.
     
  12. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    I hear that, RiverElf
    even though there's money at stake, some values have to come into play.


    how about same money with less effort? that's traps.
    Low overhead, no boats to maintain, no hauling/setting, they work while you rest.
    a few hours of sorting each day, you're done.

    "Meanwhile, the tribal fisheries culture center and fly tying shop will be doing a brisk business. I hear they have a killer lox omelette at the snack bar :) ...and did you see their new line of Shelm switchers? awesome"

    after a few years of selective trapping, the wild fish could conceivably recover to the point where they start getting spawned and the eggs put in river boxes, where they could hatch out naturally in their home environment and spawn more successfully on their return. recovery could be exponential.


    JohnnyRock, don't even get me started on high seas interception!!!!LOL


    sorry to be such a blowhard guys, I'm going to bed. being hopeful is tiring business.
    Bob
     
  13. dryflylarry

    dryflylarry "Chasing Riseforms"

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    Mike-

    I seriously had that dream--the virtual reality stream. It was a "man-made" stream, landscaped with trees and shrubs, rocks and gravels, and a huge pump that moved water, pools and riffles, and planted with trout! The artificial stream was routed into a meandering mile or so circle. I woke up thinking, "Now there is an entreprneural idea!" I can't believe that no one has constructed one yet! Any investors out there?!!! I wonder if they have one in Dubois yet! :)
     
  14. Chris Bellows

    Chris Bellows Your Preferred WFF Poster

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    truly funny stuff... keep it coming.

    as for turning tribal fishers into guides... do yourself a favor and read the guide tipping threads and ask yourself if the tribal fishers would seriously put up with the bullshit of being a guide (hard work, low pay, long hours) and if many of them would even be capable of guiding skill wise (and i would say the same about the majority of commercial fishermen... so it's not about race).

    so the goal is the make tribal members guides and fly shop owners/employees... sounds like a sure way to create wealth. i don't know why they would even think of casinos :rofl:
     
  15. SpeySpaz

    SpeySpaz still an authority on nothing

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    Interesting point topwater-
    'course the guiding thing wasn't my idea, you have me confused with someone else. But there are some opportunities besides a snack bar or fly shop available...They could be heroes to the whole culture if they wanted to and had the right PR.

    several of the dissenting justices on Boldt and SCOTUS mentioned that the 50% take should be contingent on the tribe's actual need for income from fishing.

    with every member of the Puyallups getting a 2000$/month payout from the casino fund, and a 20,000$ plus check when they each turn 18 years old, doesn't the argument of fishing to make ends meet start sounding a little hollow?