Up one line? Two?

Discussion in 'Saltwater' started by Jake L, Aug 2, 2008.

  1. Philster

    Philster Active Member

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    Have you searched for "coho line"? I'm sure there are threads aplenty. And I'm sure, especially with beach guys you'll find intermediate rules. And if there isn't a good thread already, why not start one. After all this is a line matching thread right here. Not a coho line thread:p
     
  2. Jake L

    Jake L New Member

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    :thumb:I think two threads on what line to buy is enough for me... for now.
     
  3. snbrundage

    snbrundage Member

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    Philster,

    If you were following Jrlyman's previous thread you would see that I know exactly how much weight that would put on his six weight, and hopefully break the ...!

    By the way Philster, your comments on the disadvantages of the longer specialty heads are spot on, the most eloquent and articulate I have read or heard. I do not think of myself as a good catcher of fish, nevertheless, I seldom false cast unless there is fast current and I need to greatly realign and that increases the time the fly is in the water. It has been a long time since I've used heads of less than thirty feet. I seem to remember that some of the heavy stuff that required lengths of less than twenty feet were a bitch. For the last while I have simply used the taylor mades of thirty feet. So, how do the 26 and 28 feet lines work? For instance, a 26 foot floating head. Please say more about that.

    My sense is that selling an outbound to a beginner is tatamount to giving a twelve guage to a 12 year old. But, you know, Jrlyman's curiosity is his greatest virtue and it may serve him for years. If I can get this casting down I may start to catch fish.

    steve
     
  4. Richard E

    Richard E Active Member

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    Word. iagree

    jrylyman, why do you think poppers attract src and coho? Why floating lines can be very effective? And, notice the eyes of the fish are on the tops of their head; they're looking up, and forward. Presenting the fly below a fish is much less productive than presenting the lure/fly being above the fish . . .

    Trout routinely move up to the surface to feed, or why would we need dry flies? Sure, in rivers trout derive much of their feed subsurface, but a lot of that is because most of their food is subsurface.
     
  5. Jake L

    Jake L New Member

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    I'd like to defend my status as not a beginner, I'm really more of a beginning to be intermediate fly-fisher. :thumb: I'm just new to this Salty water, and new to this state. I've fished for fish in rivers and lakes from Mexico to AK on a fly rod for about 3 years, (not a long time, but I fish frequently). I've caught every (major) species of trout, in every size from 2" to 2 feet. I've worn out a pair of waders and the soles of my boots. My casting hand has had bouts with carpal tunnel, and I've nearly busted a knuckle on my left hand from a running sockeye. I've hooked myself more times than I care to mention (luckily not on a cast yet...). I definitely don't consider myself an expert. Can I say that again? I definitely am no expert. But I'd like to consider myself slightly beyond beginner, even if its only stoking my ego and fooling no one:cool:.
    I know I have a lot to learn, and I can't wait.

    Oh ya and I was shooting a 12 gauge at pheasants when I was 12:D...
     
  6. Jake L

    Jake L New Member

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    But for the record, you guys are selling me on an intermediate... Airflo 40+ fast int. 7wt? Sounds good. Probably will work just fine.
     
  7. Philster

    Philster Active Member

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    I am confused... So your anti-Les comments were sarcasm? If I recognized that I wouldn't have been so short. I didn't follow the other thread, but his curiosity seems to be well balanced with open mindedness and a positive attitude, but maybe that's only in this thread?:p. If you are saying you think the 6 wt is too light for coho I agree. But sometimes economics come into it, and one has to use the heaviest rod one has. I wouldn't condemn someone for that and wish broken gear on them, but I would urge them to to step up at the first opportunity.

    As to the outbound being a bad choice for a beginer, I would disagree in terms of weight, but agree in terms of length. I've taught hundreds to cast and I think that a shooting head type line (overweighting by 2 or 3 aftma weights depending on the rod) is one of the best things to put in the hands of a beginner to get them to understand the concept of loading a rod. I often start out the most hardheaded folks who won't stop that speedy jerky falsecasting with a head stretched out on the grass in front of them, and make them do one sidearm back cast, wait to feel the load, and then a good forward cast and release. I've cured many "Artistic" casters that way when they see that forward cast carry 70 feet or more when they couldn't cast 40 before that.

    As to line length I find that the denser the line the shorter I can get away with. I lean towards 27-28 feet with floaters and intermediates, and down to 25 to 26 feet for serious sinkers. You can go shorter, as you go much under 30 feet they all start flying like bricks, but as you already discovered as you go shoter and shorter, at some point especially with the less dense lines you start losing distance. You will get more carry with a dense heavy line and a light mono running line, but it is fundamentally true that when a fly line finishes unrolling the flight is over, and I don't care if you're steve Rajeff and release that cast the millisecond that forward loop forms, that clouser is going to duck back under your line before hitting the water and you'll be stripping 8 or 10 times with absolutely NO contact with your fly! We all have to find the point of balance that works with our casting, but I'm willing to bet that if you grab a 30 foot head that is one size heavier than you normally use, and chop 2 to 3 feet off it, unless you pride yourself on the artisitic aspect of your casting, you won't be sacrificing much. I grew up in the SF Bay Area, and this old stuff down on the coastal rivers like the Gualala, Navarro, and the Russian.

    See this is why I don't watch shows like lost where there's a developing story. I'm not going to catch every episode, and I have no idea what's going on...
     
  8. snbrundage

    snbrundage Member

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    Philster

    I made no anti Les comments, quite the contrary. Les advised the man to get into shooting heads. He started a new thread and said that due to excellent advice on the previous thread he would go to the outbound route. I thought he did not heed Les's advice. Nor did he heed my advice pointing out the difficulties involved in the outbound, pissing me off! That is why I advised him to not seek Les's further advice. Had I been more clear I would have said that it is not wise to make Les surlier than he is. But that would have been too revealng of my own personality.

    In the earlier thread I contrasted the advantage, disadvantage, of a heavier weight head against a lighter head, and pointed to the problems of the extra length (which I also see as the biggest problem.)

    Thanks for the comments on head weight. I too have experienced the beginners amazement at shooting out eighty feet in fifteen minutes. (Disclaimer, I have taught other things, but I do not teach fly rodding.) And more importantly, thanks for the comments on head length. I count that important and will experiment with cutting it down a bit.

    I also said that I appreciate Jrlymans curiosity. I should add that I appreciate his imagination
    because if he can imagine it he can learn it.

    Jrlyman, keep it coming.

    sb
     
  9. Jake L

    Jake L New Member

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    Glad you're not too bitter about me deciding on the integrated head. :thumb: I think you'll be glad to know that I have been swayed yet again towards the airflo 40+ because it is more similar to a standard shooting head its shorter than the outbound, only 30ft head. It seems like it is a good compromise between the simplicity of an all in one system, and an "old school" shooting head. It'll be an intermediate sink, because the ability to throw a popper on it occasionally (not as well as on floating I know, limited to quick retrieve/swing, whatever I'll make it work) has sold me.

    Thanks for all your help, and for the record I've read Les' books, and taken a lot more of his advise than I've turned down. And I'm pretty certain a lot of it I haven't taken to heart will be stuff I'll likely learn the hard way.

    As for being able to cast the shooting head, I am confident that I will be able to learn how. I am a completely self taught caster, and therefore have learned this much more slowly than many. But the first time I picked up a rod I was sending out thirty feet within five minutes, not great but functional enough to fish.

    Again, thanks all, I'll keep you updated on my learning experiences.
     
  10. Philster

    Philster Active Member

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    Ah. Without knowing the background "I can't recommend Les Johnson for more advice on this matter" sounds like "Les doesn't know crap about about this stuff":rofl: I see now...
     
  11. SciGuy

    SciGuy Active Member

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    OK...two question WRT this thread:

    1) What are the advantage and disadvantages of going up a line or two? My impression from this and other threads is that with the OB you might want to go up a line if you have a slower action rod. What would it be like if you went up a line with a fast action rod? Would it cast just fine but just put excessive stress on the rod? Please explain.

    2) Do most fly shops have a good return policy? For example, if I want to try going up a weight and end up not liking the line, will they usually take it back if returned within a week or so?
     
  12. Philster

    Philster Active Member

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    Typically Outbounds are between 2.5 to 3.5 sizes overweight, however fitting that weight into a longer head changes the way it interacts with the rod, so it doesn't "feel" as heavy as a 30 foot line of the same weight would feel. So an 8 weight would weigh the same as an 11 wt 30 foot shooting head (about) but the extra length slows everything down a bit and keeps it from feeling as overloaded.

    I wouldn't overline with an outbound. A slower full flexing rod would require less load than a faster rod. Take a super slow and soft 6 wt. cast a 4 wt line on it. If you can cast well and control your loop, you can throw 2 inch tall v loops off that rod and it's perfect for the forks of the snoqualmie and tight quarter fishing, but you'll never get great distance out of it. Put the six back on and you got u shaped soft slow deliveries. Take a super fast 6 and do the same thing, and you'll get that same tight loop control, but for most of us alot less distance. Because you are loading the rod even less. Most of the energy going into the cast is coming from your arm motions, and little of it is being stored and "shot" from the rod. I would try a lighter Outbound on the soft rod first.

    As to returns. I never took back lines that someone spooled up and used. Your relationship with your shop may be different. But at $75 a line, I doubt it.
     
  13. Jim Wallace

    Jim Wallace Smells like low tide.

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    Interesting discussion here, and I hope I'm learning something I can put to use.

    I have a love/hate relationship with my 6wt Clear Intermediate Rio Outbound line. I'm tossing it with my 9' TFO Signature Series 1 6wt and it just doesn't seem right. That may be due to my lousy casting and my needing more practice refining my shooting technique, and I'm working on that. But it almost seems that the line casts more easily using a cheap backup 9' 6 wt I have that has slower action.
    I found this out last week when I setup my reel with the Outbound on the ElCheapo rod for a 2nd rod while my TFO had a reel with a clear int. sinktip on it. The ElCheapo rod semed to load up better than the TFO with the Outbound line.
    Then I accidentally snapped the running line when a gust of wind blew a loop of slack around my rod butt (I was fishing for searun cutts from my U-12, standing up in it in the middle of the river) just as i gave a good strip to get some more line off the reel during a backcast.:eek: Lucky thing I felt it pop and didn't shoot the line!:beathead:One cutthroat was safe from harrassment for a little while longer!
    It broke about 9 feet back from where it had previously broken and I had it spliced onto the head. Now I'm going to have to remove the 9 foot section of running line, and resplice the rest of it to the head again. I won't even miss the 9 feet. :beathead:

    On another subject, I'm thimkin of splicing 25 feet of T-14 onto some Amnesia for my 8 wt for fishing deep. Kind of heavy, but sounds like I don't want to go any shorter than 25' head length. Izzat about right? I already have the T-14 and Amnesia, so I might as well put 'em together.
     
  14. Stonefish

    Stonefish Triploid, Humpy & Seaplane Hater

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    Jim,
    Start out with 30' and cut it back one foot at a time until you find the sweet spot for your rod. Each rod of course is different. Just my opinion, but I'd bet with T-14 the shortest you'd likely want to go with an 8 wt would be 28'.
    Good luck,
    Brian
     
  15. SciGuy

    SciGuy Active Member

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