Up one line? Two?

Discussion in 'Saltwater' started by Jake L, Aug 2, 2008.

  1. Denny

    Denny Active Member

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    Does anyone really 'know' the Outbound head grain weights? I've heard something substantially smaller in number than what you've thrown out.

    I have a Airflo 40+ with a floater head, and it ain't 2.5 to 3.5 sizes overweight. If it were, it would really manhandle my SP, and it doesn't.
     
  2. Stonefish

    Stonefish Triploid, Humpy & Seaplane Hater

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  3. jcnewbie

    jcnewbie Member

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    iagree
    My weekend experience mimics almost all of the above shortcomings - even broke a hook on a small clouser (?) -- must've hit the rocks on the beach....thot I heard a "pop" back there...????

    That said, I'm pretty sure the main faults lie with my casting technique (or lack thereof) rather than the line - possible also line weight/rod combo. Seems like most of the talk on this thread is more about "overlining" for better results tho the opposite was recommended to me at the beach.

    Possible scenario:
    1.) Since I can't rip 37.5 + 9' Ox leader & 2' 1x tippet off the water into a roll cast - especially with a weighted clouser 2-4 feet underwater - I have to strip line in to about 15-20 feet (+ leader & tippet) before I can get a "crumpled up roll cast" out in front to start the backcast. Because there is a varying amount of slack line in the water from the roll cast, the first backcast is generally what I would call, "incoherent", meaning in simpler terms, crappy! Now I need a good "coherent" forward cast to begin straightning out the mess in back of me. If I'm successful on this forward cast, I then have the beginnings of a "decent" backcast. Now I'm already up to three (3) "false" casts, not counting the roll cast from the water - back, haul, forward, haul, back, haul.....and now with a perfectly executed and timed forward cast and haul (that causes my line hand to smash into my Orvis stripping basket), about 30-35 feet of line goes smoking out of the rod tip and lands, "kersploosh" 50-55 feet somewhere in front of me - 'cud be either right or left of "front" but at least it's usually in front somewhere!:hmmm: I know it was good because I've got 15-20' of running line out + plus the roll cast line & leader, blah,blah, also.

    I few times I actually stumbled into the right timing and coordination and it was the most effortless, easy, painless, farthest casting ever - but not often even tho I kept trying to recreate that feeling of effortless-ness when it all just comes together.....:beer2:

    For me, when it works it requires no effort, no muscle, no grunting and no cussin', just a nice smooth, easy rythym...gawd, if I could just do that every time????:rolleyes:

    Jcnewbie (...gotta get back to work now)
     
  4. Philster

    Philster Active Member

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    It's dangerous to comment without seeing you cast, but it's probably safe to say that a heavily loaded slow action rod is going to be very forgiving in terms of the "good" window in regards to casting timing. think of it as if there's a bell curve that measures casting timing with the ultimate cast at the center. A very narrow band in the middle of that curve is "perfect", not too early, not too late, just a little leeway to either side of perfectly loaded and timed. I know when I hit that zone because I usally say "whoa" and my cast just sails. It's not a common occurence:p the next zone is great. Just a little early or late resulting in a little less efficiency, and you still send a cast soaring with great loop formation. Then there's good, where most intermediate fishers live. You're not right on, but your casts are within 5 or 10 feet of what you would consider a really good cast, you aren't tailing or tangling your leader very often, and your loop isn't a tight V, but it's not 5 foot tall either. It's a good solid fishing cast you'd feel good about nailing all day long.

    The problem is that curve is a different shape for every rod, and that fast rod's "good" window, is going to be about the size of the slow rods "great" window. Not exactly of course, but work with the analogy :rolleyes: The demands on the caster for near equal performance are going to be higher with a very fast rod. Almost everybody who isn't a great caster, especially with a shooting head style line, will do better with a more middle of the road rod. An XP is easier for most people to cast great with than a TCR even though the TCR could be considered a "better casting rod". For steelheading with long casts and swinging flies I wouldn't mind a demanding rod. If I'm standing up banging the banks with a bugger from a boat with a thousand casts for hours on end, my casting will start to suck as I get tired. I want a less demanding rod for that style of fishing.

    Now some folks will just toss a heavier line on that fast rod to "open up" the good or great window. The problem is you have to be pretty knowledgeable to be able to ascertain if you are also affecting the way the rod unloads and killing the performance to the point that you might as well be using an ugly stick. It's a tough call, but with a line like an outbound, where you're already loading it up, it's usually not the answer.
     
  5. Stonefish

    Stonefish Triploid, Humpy & Seaplane Hater

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    A couple of things that might help.
    A shorter leader. I haven't found coho to be leader shy. On the Airflo 40 + I'm using, it has a clear tip. I not sure if the OB is clear also. I like to use a 6-7 foot leader. I don't think you need a 11' leader on an intermediate, especially casting a clouser.
    Also, you can just build your own leader. Maxima UG is what works well for me.

    Try to cast your line using a minimum number of false casts. I like to use one or two water hauls max to load it, then shoot it. It may take a few trips to get it dialed in and find the sweet spot with your rod.
     
  6. Mr.E

    Mr.E He called me an Elitist ?? LOL ..what a moron

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    Richard, since the original poster is asking about his 6 WT. I just spooled on a RIO IST on my 6 wt. Casting it is a dream on my 9'6" rod.

    Spec on the box: Rio WF6F 240gr (16gms) floating cold water
     
  7. Josh Smestad

    Josh Smestad aka Mtnwkr

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    I've been throwing a 8wt 40+ Int. on a 7wt TFO Ticr and it feels overlined. Could I just cut it back a few feet or would I run into problems?


     
  8. Stonefish

    Stonefish Triploid, Humpy & Seaplane Hater

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    MtnWkr,
    Jim was asking about a shooting head, not one of the integrated shooting head lines.
    I would think the 40 + would match up well with your TiCR.
    I can't recall anyone mentioning cutting back their intergrated head lines, but I guess that is always a possibility.
    I'm sure others will chime on question and give you their opinions.
     
  9. jcnewbie

    jcnewbie Member

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    Yes, the OB is clear -- for 37.5 feet when the running line starts.

    So, you're saying, I don't need a 9' Ox tapered leader plus 2' of 1x tippet? Just use 6-7 feet of Maxima 8-10 lb? What is Maxima UG...oh never mind, it just dawned on me, duhhh....Ultra Green I betcha' !!:) I can hardly wait to try it!!

    Do you think it's NOT a good idea to have 40-50' of line, leader/tippet on the backcast and just "shoot line" on the "final" forward cast. On a good solid backcast I will usually try to haul and slip about 5 or 6 feet of line and then shoot about 15-20 feet on the forward cast. When you start doing the math, (even under ideal conditions) by the time of your second (false) backcast you've got a whole bunch of line out (I can't do the math!) and a whole bunch of "beach" in the way too....not to mention a very rapidly deteriorating loopola behindja':eek:!

    Should I attempt to "shoot" 50-60 feet of line only on the final foward cast then? And nothing on the backcast - maybe just a single haul - forward? Or two single hauls forward and "shoot" 25 feet forward each time?

    Not trying to be a pain here - just trying to make sense out of all the different ways, ya know?:)

    I have so far to go.....:beathead:

    jcnewbie
     
  10. Jake L

    Jake L New Member

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    Trust me, if this forum found excessive question asking painful, I would have been driven out with pitchforks a few months ago. Just be sure to never ask the forbidden w's. Where? What? ... there's a third one somewhere...

    I'm pretty sure that you should shoot it all in one go. I'll let you know more for sure on wednesday after I've tried it out myself:D. I'm going with the 7wt fast intermediate Airflo 40+. Should work well enough for me.
     
  11. Philster

    Philster Active Member

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    You could. With a shorter line:clown: But here's some stuff that may help.

    As stated, you don't need more than 4 to 5 feet of level leader with a sinking line. Even a solid color sinking line. I generally fish 6 to 7 because I dink around trying different flies, and if I start with 5 feet, between cutting back for fish teeth roughing up the knot area, and swapping flies, I'm down to 3 feet pretty quickly, and that's getting too short for my comfort level. In crazy wind conditions or really heavy flies, aim for the 5 foot mark which will be nice and short, and let you change flies a few times before adding leader. Your life will be easier.

    Now the casting approach. Figure out where your best casts come with that line in terms of how much running line, or socalled "overhang" out of the tip top. It'll vary from line to line, rod to rod etc. But it's probably between 1 foot and 5 feet. Now extend that much line out of the tip top. Raise the rod to the "locked and loaded, ready for the forward cast position". Now where you can see it in your peripheral vision by the side of your face, mark a 4 inch long section of your line with magic marker. Let it dry thoroughly before respooling, and if you have a cat do it in a locked room away from the cat until everything is dry and respooled. Trust me on that last part bawling:

    The reason you marked your line is that with practice you can learn exactly how much of your too-long line you CAN roll to the surface in one shot and have it laying perfectly straight out in front of you for pickup. You can then learn to lay your rod a little flat on the backcast and slip line until your eye catches that marked section. You then trap the line, pause for the load, and forward cast. It'll take practice and unless you do it alot you won't be perfect, but if you're competent you can probably average 80 percent, single roll, one backcast, shoot. It does add line speed to your backcast, which can introduce shock with heavy weighted flies, but you can live with that. That's how I use my outbounds. It works, but it's WORK! I'd rather use a shorter line.
     
  12. Philster

    Philster Active Member

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    Rio confused things in attempt to make it easier for folks new to shooting heads. It used to be that shooting heads weighed the same in the first 30 feet as a WF line. So you would buy an 8 weight or 9 weight shooting head, depending on your preference, for your six weight rod and end up with a head that weighed 210 or 240 respectively. We all knew this, and did it. Have an 8 wt? buy a 10 or 11 wt head. Times were simple.

    Rio decided that it would make more sense to newbies, and I agree it does, to just sell shooting heads "for" six weights. But you still end up buying what used to be a 9 weight shooting head! Six weight WFs weigh 160. 9 weight WFs weigh 240 which is what your rio "6wt shooting head" weighs...

    Good in the long run, but us old schoolers get mightily confused...
     
  13. Mr.E

    Mr.E He called me an Elitist ?? LOL ..what a moron

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    Philister,
    So according to the spec's, the 37.5' shooting head is old school 8wt? What does the (16gms) stand for?
     
  14. jcnewbie

    jcnewbie Member

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    Jrlyman, are you going to use that on a 6 wt rod or a 7 wt rod?

    I think Richard has a "good" point also - instead of trying to cast like a trout cast, think more like "shooting line" in one or two false casts instead.

    Anyhow, Wednesday I think will be my next foray to the Narrows Park beach and I want to try several of the different suggestions asserted herein....:)

    Now of course I'm even thinking of buying a Salt 6 wt "Shooting Head" floating line - maybe even a Wulff Triangle Taper but don't know if they make that in a "Salt" version!

    Just keep spending money until it all comes out right, right? Hehehe! I've heard tell that lotsa money spent can buy success in just about anything....maybe they was jus' talkin' 'bout women, yeah, sure!! I don't think they ever tried fly casting tho....:hmmm:.....it's such a peculiar combination of art & science. :)

    I'll keep at it until I get it right -- preferably before I run out of money :(!!

    Thanks for the input and let me know how your combo works for ya.

    jcnewbie:thumb:
     
  15. jcnewbie

    jcnewbie Member

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    Posted by Philster:
    Trust me on this, sir....it ain't just the "old schoolers" that get mightily confused....:eek::confused::confused:

    I'm still trying to digest your other post/reply and will probably have to ask more dumb questions...:eek:

    Thanks....so far, ha!

    jcnewbie:)