Up one line? Two?

Ed Call

Well-Known Member
#77
Jake after your thread and you getting the airflow 40+ 7wt for your 6wt rod (and thinking it was a bit heavy) I got the 40+ 7 for my 7. Done! Now I'll see if I can get the casting thing down and chuck some serious line out.
 

Richard E

Active Member
#79
Jake after your thread and you getting the airflow 40+ 7wt for your 6wt rod (and thinking it was a bit heavy) I got the 40+ 7 for my 7. Done! Now I'll see if I can get the casting thing down and chuck some serious line out.
Dude, for you and your particular 10' 7 wt., you should have gotten the 8 wt. I'll be interested to see how the line works out for you; send me a PM from time to time.
 

Stonefish

Triploid, Humpy & Seaplane Hater
#80
For those who haven't ever cast shooting heads, the integrated lines (40+ or OB) will take some getting use to. Once you get over the urge to do a bunch of false casts and start shooting the line, your distance will improve. Finding the sweet spot for your rod is the key with these lines.
 

Ed Call

Well-Known Member
#81
Dude, for you and your particular 10' 7 wt., you should have gotten the 8 wt. I'll be interested to see how the line works out for you; send me a PM from time to time.
Richard, if you are sure about my Redington RS4 10'er being better with the 8wt, let me know. I have not loaded it yet and likely would be able to swap it at the shop.

If anyone else wishes to chime in, feel free. Today I'm feeling like moldable clay.
 
#82
So here's my update. I've had my Echo Classic 10' 6 wt with the Airflo Outbound 40+ 7wt fast sink intermediate for a couple days. It is awesome. The head feels slightly heavy for the rod, but not too bad, I may cut off a foot or so, I'm thinking about it first...
So I head out to the beach to give things a try. Its still dark, but I've rigged up before hand and so I start fishing, or trying to. My very first cast was about 50'. Not bad. I strip in, cast out about 80'. Holy Crap! That was my longest cast of the day though. After that I hit a wall at about 65-70'. I kept improving, using fewer backcasts, getting more accuracy, more of the casts pushing 70' than earlier in the day. But I just couldn't get any more distance. If I tried for more, I'd get a trailing loop. I tried smoothing out the power, I tried putting it on later. I tried longer strokes, I tried shorter. I could cast out to 70 just fine with good (relatively) loops, but any time I tried to push it they fell apart.

So I went out for some grass casting. It was super confidence boosting. I was hitting about 80-85 on my better casts. But just couldn't get her to go any further, curiously I had no trouble with trailing loops. Must have been that I was tired out there on the beach.

So there's my casting report. I think I'll be able to get some more distance with practice, and perhaps a lower tide would help keep my back casts out of rocks, logs, dogs, joggers, machinery, car tires, etc. Oh and that let a few feet slip thing adds a good 8 feet, when I get it right. Thanks for all the help.
Jake,

Boy do I know that feeling – casting like a World Class Champion (?) on the grass – then getting to the beach and can only get 60 feet max.!!

On Sunday at Narrows Park Beach, had quite a bit of wind coming straight down the beach from my right side (strong side) to deal with and could only get 45-60 feet at best and got myself tangled in line, poppers & clousers – even a rod hit a couple of times with the clouser, ouch! - due to the wind! Tried all different angles, back cast into the wind, forward cast into the wind, 90 degrees to the wind, 45 degrees downwind etc. etc.. Even managed to sink the popper hook into the brim of my very large brimmed hat and got it back out with no damage due to the barbless hook, wheeew!

You know the wind is a problem when you cast straight out from the beach with the wind coming from your right and before the line unrolls on a “strong haul”, the popper is already 50 feet to the left before it even hits the water!! Also, when you are watching the backcast and the line is blown completely out of your line of vision behind ya, gots a problem too!

Honestly, the wind didn’t seem that strong until you try to cast in it – so after a couple of hours dealing with that, I again committed the ultimate blasphemy and switched to spinning gear and buzz-bombs after getting smacked in the shoulder by a clouser - until the tide was out far enough that my “back cast” wouldn’t hook a kid or dog or log or tree! I was lobbing the buzz-bomb out there 150 feet with the wind taking another 50 feet of mono into a looong belly before I could get the line into the water!

I stuck it out until about 4:00 pm (slack tide) and all the “salad” in the water was too time consuming and my back finally gave out……’course the wind died out then too!

All in all, it was not an “ego-boosting” casting day although certainly educational….3 other fly fishermen were not faring any better than I was!

jcnewbie
 
#83
Observations, from personal experience, on shooting head systems with looped heads vs. integrated head lines.

For versatility and economics, a shooting head sytem is a great choice. For versatility, a person can carry a number of varying heads in a shooting head wallet, and effectively have the equivalent of several different types of lines. Economically, the savings in not having to buy extra spools for individual lines, along with the requisite backing and extra lines for said spools.

HOWEVER, there is a downside to these systems. I have a number of different shooting head systems, 6 weight to 12 weight, and (to me) the effectiveness is affected by the size of the guides on the rod. During casting, the loops connecting the head and the running line can kind of get 'stuck'. I make some of my loops (out of braided line), with different sizes for different weight heads, and generally speaking they'll go whipping through the guides pretty well when casting. However, at the junction of the loops there is still 'bump' that isn't there on full fly lines. In rods with (relatively) small guides, those 'bumps' can be a pain in the rear.

So, the nice things about the integrated head lines is that a person can get the performance of a shooting head line without the downside of the connection getting 'stuck' in some of the guides.

For beach fishing in the Puget Sound, I find myself using one or two lines primarily from the beach so, to me, it's worth the extra dinero to get an extra spool and have two lines as opposed to using a shooting head system on my 6 weight. The guides are just often very small in the 6 weight.

However, for my 8 weight up to my 12 weight, I use both full lines and the shooting head sytem.

It's all a trade off!
Interesting! I was thinking about this very thing after reading all this talk about "versa-tips", "intergrated shooting heads", "WF shooting head floating lines" et. etc. and thinking, hmmm?....Maybe I should get me one of them "versa-tip" thingies so I'd have all the possiblities covered without having to carry 3-4 different reels/spools down to the water every time!

Then I took a look at the sizes of the last 4 or 5 guides on my new 6 wt GL3, especially the tip guide, and thot, "Boy, that doesn't look near big enough to get double looped line through there very easily!" Then I took another look at the other guides and they're all quite small as well....so decided to read 'n learn more before making the decision. Glad I did as you have just pointed out that particular drawback.

Upon further analysis however, I do not strip line in to the leader connection because that forces too many "false casts" to get the line back out to "shooting length" so I prefer (at this point in my short casting career) to strip line in to about 15-20' plus leader, roll-cast then start my backcast, blahblahblah! Aren't "most" "change-a-tip" lines configured to about 15-20' in length? If so, that might work okay for me since I don't strip in line past that point anyhow so the small guides wouldn't be a "casting impediment" (?)! Any additional advice on this, ladies & gents?

Great opinions & advice on this site, wow!:thumb:

jcnewbie:)
 

Ed Call

Well-Known Member
#84
JC, how much line is out when you land your fish? I have a few of the multi-tips on several setups and when I bring a fish in normally I bring that loop connection into the rod tip and guides to be able to reach the fish to land and/or release them. It might not be a factor on each cast, as I tend to do the same as you and keep the tips out of the guides for casting, but landing a fish is a bit different. I've heard some complain about losing fish as the loops rattle or pin on guides. I have not had that experience, maybe because I don't catch enough fish yet.
 
#85
JC, how much line is out when you land your fish? I have a few of the multi-tips on several setups and when I bring a fish in normally I bring that loop connection into the rod tip and guides to be able to reach the fish to land and/or release them. It might not be a factor on each cast, as I tend to do the same as you and keep the tips out of the guides for casting, but landing a fish is a bit different. I've heard some complain about losing fish as the loops rattle or pin on guides. I have not had that experience, maybe because I don't catch enough fish yet.
Oh geeez, Mumbles, don't know why you had to ask THAT question, "How much line is out when you land your fish?" What fish?...would have to be my honest answer! I have yet to land a salmon, steelhead or anything larger than a 9" cuttie (and that was with my 3 wt)

Seriously tho, that is a good point about stripping in line with a fish on - hadn't even thot of that - more thinkin' to do.....:hmmm??:confused:

More answers always breed more questions, eh?

Thanks,

Jc:D
 

Philster

Active Member
#86
This is exactly where I am right now...I just can't break 70. Good thing for both of us that there are fish within 70 feet of shore! Keep at it!
If you are using an outbound, or an airflo sized as Richard is advocating, or a normally oversized shooting, regardless of length, I'm betting you are doing one, two, or all of the following things "wrong". "Wrong" is in quotes because there is more than one way to skin a cat, but without knowing the "approved" way, it's pretty hard to come up with an individual style that works. I'm proof that you can though. I have jacked up shoulders on both sides from a misspent youth. I can't perform three identical false casts to save my life. My shoulder will lock or pop a little, and throw the cast off track, so instead I focus on what makes the rod work, and by concentrating on making that happen I cast very well indeed when I'm on my game. But years of teaching others has taught me that you need to understand what makes the rod work, and the best way to teach someone that is to teach them the fundamentals.

#1. You do not want lots of line speed on the backcast. This is where slipping line on the backcast is bad if you do more than foot or so FOR MOST PEOPLE. Really good casters can handle it, but for most folks with these lines, a Belgian type cast, circular, off to the side a little and nice and slow will get you all the loading you need. A tight v loop on the backcast, expecially with a weighted fly is counterproductive FOR MOST PEOPLE. A bonus of the Belgian cast is even though the line is traveling slowly it can be easier to watch your backcast and keep from hitting things, or the water, behind you.

#2. Forcing the forward cast. I like a nice long full extension, very slow, with a good acceleration to a solid stop at the end. Some like a nice tight short compact smooth acceleration to a solid stop at the end. In both cases the key is smooth acceleration to a solid stop. As with all casting you don't want to cast "harder". There should be no grunt on the delivery. In fact just slowing down you should gain 5 to 10 feet as long as you have a good stop.

#3. This is probably the most important. The set up. Ideally you would want to begin your backcast with the head fully out of the guides, the head and leader straight in front of you, on the surface, with your arm as close to fully extended as is comfortable, and your tip top as close to touching the water as possible. If you are rocked forward a little all the better, but it's not necessary. This is where I don't like these long lines as much as shorter lines. If you started every backcast like this, you would never need more than one backcast with these lines, and even a lame forward cast would consistently break your 70 foot wall for you. Why do you think grass casting a head is so easy? With your line extended in front of you, rod tip low, even without a water load, the deck is stacked in your favor. It's why I like short heads. No matter how deep I am, I can, with one roll, get everything out in front, rod extended, tip low practically everytime. By the time your rod is at the 10 o'clock position on your backast, that bad boy is fully loaded, and all you have to do is get your rod in the firing position. I you start your backcast at 10:00 as many I see do after 3 or 4 rolls to get things on top, it's a whole different story.

I tried to avoid brain pain inducing concepts this time:beathead:
 
#87
If you are using an outbound, or an airflo sized as Richard is advocating, or a normally oversized shooting, regardless of length, I'm betting you are doing one, two, or all of the following things "wrong". "Wrong" is in quotes because there is more than one way to skin a cat, but without knowing the "approved" way, it's pretty hard to come up with an individual style that works. I'm proof that you can though. I have jacked up shoulders on both sides from a misspent youth. I can't perform three identical false casts to save my life. My shoulder will lock or pop a little, and throw the cast off track, so instead I focus on what makes the rod work, and by concentrating on making that happen I cast very well indeed when I'm on my game. But years of teaching others has taught me that you need to understand what makes the rod work, and the best way to teach someone that is to teach them the fundamentals.

#1. You do not want lots of line speed on the backcast. This is where slipping line on the backcast is bad if you do more than foot or so FOR MOST PEOPLE. Really good casters can handle it, but for most folks with these lines, a Belgian type cast, circular, off to the side a little and nice and slow will get you all the loading you need. A tight v loop on the backcast, expecially with a weighted fly is counterproductive FOR MOST PEOPLE. A bonus of the Belgian cast is even though the line is traveling slowly it can be easier to watch your backcast and keep from hitting things, or the water, behind you.

#2. Forcing the forward cast. I like a nice long full extension, very slow, with a good acceleration to a solid stop at the end. Some like a nice tight short compact smooth acceleration to a solid stop at the end. In both cases the key is smooth acceleration to a solid stop. As with all casting you don't want to cast "harder". There should be no grunt on the delivery. In fact just slowing down you should gain 5 to 10 feet as long as you have a good stop.

#3. This is probably the most important. The set up. Ideally you would want to begin your backcast with the head fully out of the guides, the head and leader straight in front of you, on the surface, with your arm as close to fully extended as is comfortable, and your tip top as close to touching the water as possible. If you are rocked forward a little all the better, but it's not necessary. This is where I don't like these long lines as much as shorter lines. If you started every backcast like this, you would never need more than one backcast with these lines, and even a lame forward cast would consistently break your 70 foot wall for you. Why do you think grass casting a head is so easy? With your line extended in front of you, rod tip low, even without a water load, the deck is stacked in your favor. It's why I like short heads. No matter how deep I am, I can, with one roll, get everything out in front, rod extended, tip low practically everytime. By the time your rod is at the 10 o'clock position on your backast, that bad boy is fully loaded, and all you have to do is get your rod in the firing position. I you start your backcast at 10:00 as many I see do after 3 or 4 rolls to get things on top, it's a whole different story.

I tried to avoid brain pain inducing concepts this time:beathead:
I know your reply wasn't directed to me specifically...hope you don't mind too much if I butt in little, sir!

Excellent advice Philster! But you failed utterly in "avoiding brain pain inducing concepts..." hehe, just kidding!; all you say is pretty much as I have been taught by several different casting instuctors in the last few months - all different but basically the same!

One of them, Don Simonsen (I think) at Orvis explained about 3/4's of the way through his seminar, "most instructors that have been teaching "advanced fly casting" have eliminated that phase and only teach "basic, fundemental casting" because 99% of their students are not really "advanced casters" at all, they just think they are "advanced" because they've been "fly fishing" for 25, 30 or more years! Turns out they've forgotten all the fundementals and need to go back to "square one" again! I found that to be a very interesting bit of truth tucked away into a very informative seminar!

By the time your rod is at the 10 o'clock position on your backast, that bad boy is fully loaded, and all you have to do is get your rod in the firing position. If you start your backcast at 10:00 as many I see do after 3 or 4 rolls to get things on top, it's a whole different story.
This still one of my main "problem areas" in that I cannot seem to get a nice straight, tidy roll cast laid out on the water and have to "sacrifice" the first backcast to get the line all straightned out. 99% of the time it all just "accordions" or zig-zags making a slack-free pick and hence, "loading the rod" impossible until you end the backcast and start the forward cast. Often, because the rods energy is not being transferred to the line (too much slack) at the start of the backcast, the backcast is clumsy & sloppy and thusly must be straightned & tiddied up on the forward cast - I'm sure you see where this is heading....but I don't wanna hi-jack anymore of your thread without your explicit consent!

jc:)
 

SciGuy

Active Member
#88
If you are using an outbound, or an airflo sized as Richard is advocating, or a normally oversized shooting, regardless of length, I'm betting you are doing one, two, or all of the following things "wrong"...
Wow! Am ever guilt of doing things "wrong"...especially with respect to overpowering both the fore and back casts. I've been using both the OB intermediate and floating dependent mostly upon the tide and whether I want to use surface flies, so consider that for the following.

A few questions to clarify on the "approved" technique:

1. If I do a false or roll cast or two to get the head out, do I then a) let the line touch down on the water striaght in front of me with rod tip low, b) bring it up to 10:00, c) pause to load the rod, d) shoot with acceleration, and then e) hard stop?
2. At what position do I make the hard stop?
3. Do I still follow the line as it falls after making the hard stop?
4. I assume you double haul, correct?
 

Richard E

Active Member
#89
One of them, Don Simonsen (I think) at Orvis explained about 3/4's of the way through his seminar, "most instructors that have been teaching "advanced fly casting" have eliminated that phase and only teach "basic, fundemental casting" because 99% of their students are not really "advanced casters" at all, they just think they are "advanced" because they've been "fly fishing" for 25, 30 or more years! Turns out they've forgotten all the fundementals and need to go back to "square one" again! I found that to be a very interesting bit of truth tucked away into a very informative seminar!
Don really knows his stuff. He loves, loves, loves the art and science of casting and teaching it to people; each time I listen to him he changes up his lesson plan and approach, always for the better. Some folks don't always appreciate his ultra serious drill sargent teaching approach, but to him fly casting is serious stuff. I'm glad you found his seminar informative.

I haven't seen you cast or know of your casting skill level, but you mentioned once before that you are self-taught. There's nothing wrong with being a self-taught caster, but often a person schooled in this manner will miss or not be aware of some fundamentals that are important. That's awesome that it appears you want to advance your casting skills. Good for you (as long as you actually listen, learn, and apply some of those lessons - grin).
 

Jeremy Floyd

fly fishing my way through life
#90
JC, I think you will find over time that the GL3 guides are much bigger than the average size. I have Sage, Rainshadow, and Scott to compare with and the GL3 guides are about 25% bigger than all of these other models I have on hand at the house.