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Upland dogs

5K views 55 replies 24 participants last post by  GSVette 
#1 ·
Who has a lab and uses it for upland?

Do you use it exclusively for upland?

I am looking for a great family dog and, mainly used for upland hunting and a fishing companion. Thinking about a lab or English Setter and I know they are quite different. Any advice and thoughts would be appreciated.
 
#3 ·
Get a field trials Golden Retriever; great family dog, great on upland, great on waterfowl, and the coat's not oily like a lab's. They'll shed, though! Our girls, Ailan and Fiona, are wonderful, and I wouldn't be without them. Our first, Aspen, i'd stack up against any other breed, especially for upland, and tell them to bring cash....they'd need it. They're flushers, but you can train them to point. And quick! Fiona's plucked two pheasants out of midair on the flush. Teaches you to hold your shot!
 
#4 ·
I have a 18 month old pointing labrador out of Tiger Mountain Kennels-she has been (up to now) an exclusive upland dog (pheasants and chukars). She is also a terrific fishing companion (spends a lot of her time in my drift boat on the Yak) as well as a great family dog and companion for my older Golden.

She is a fantastic hunter with a great nose and drive. Her pointing skills (at this point in her development) are quite good and getting better every hunting trip. She'll have her very first long, wild bird hunt in Montana in the fall-up to now her hunting has been at preserves and hunt clubs in order to ensure lots of finding, pointing and retrieving opportunities.

Get a PL-you won't go wrong.
 

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#5 · (Edited)
I have a female yellow lab with Tiger Mountain dam and Longhollow sire.
She's the best dog I've ever had.
She's an absolute hunting fool in the field and the best family/neighborhood dog you could ask for.
She works in fairly close and hard, punches through the heaviest cover and can do it all day.
I thought I wanted a pointing lab when I bought her but after hunting the first season, I'm happy she's a flusher, especially on wild roosters.
PM me for more info.
 
#6 ·
"Any thoughts..."

If you're an upland hunter I'd get an upland dog, not a water specialist that will do field work when asked, if it has to. Go watch a lab run through a field, it's like those videos of football linemen doing ballet.

You're just down the road from Tekoa Mountain Setters in Boring, I'd go throw an eyeball on those before I made a decision that will span the next 1.5 decades.

Something else I've always found interesting is that no one I know of in the professional dog world (trainers, other kennels) speaks well of Tiger Mountain point labs, yet everyone that's bought one has great things to say. Not sure where the disconnect is, but there's one there somewhere.

Lab guys can send all hate mail to yeahwhatever@versatiledogjerk.com
 
#11 ·
I have been in touch with Tekoa and am looking at some out of state breeders as well.

If hunting and fishing companion were equal which breed would be the Best or mellowest house dog? I have a large denied yard but hope to keep our family dog in with us much of the time.
 
#9 ·
Do you want a trials dog, or a hunting dog?

I own a golden, my second, and had a Chessie. Grew up with a beagle. All hunted upland just fine, though the beagle, well, we're still telling stories about him 40 years later. I'm not a pointer guy, but there's those that are. Train your dog and it will hunt with you. My bro has a pointing lab, and wants another, and it's been great to hunt over. If you want a trials dog, that's a different game. Some are fun to hunt with, some are not. All trials dogs are great as they wait in the box while trials guys stand around drinkin' coffee and pontificating.

You really can't screw up if you get a dog and train it. See Roper...a poodle, fer chrissakes!
 
#20 ·
I had two labs and two German Longhair Pointers. I could always tell when we were getting close to a bird, because the Labs would start getting birdy. Several times I watched my Longhair's work a bird for a 1/4 mile or more, before the Labs finally noticed.

That said....the second lab a small, black female also came to the same conclusion. She would watch the pointers work and see if they were getting birdy. After my first pointer died, she started watching my friends German Shorthair Pointer working birds. Hunt for me for a bit, then look up the hillside to see how the GSP was doing. If he was tracking a bird....she would take off and flush the bird. My friend, bless him, just laughed and shot the birds she flushed.

The nice thing about Labs is that they love everybody. The GLP were my dogs. So much so that they resented my wife being number two in the pack.

So there you go.....90 days of hunting season worth the 270 days of a bad family dog??
 
#12 ·
My two English Setters are awesome house dogs and very mellow, incredibly loving pets. They both have some Takoa blood. I've never had dogs that were so affectionate and gentle. Get them on birds though and they transform into all-business bird hunting machines! This means, however, that they aren't great just walking or hiking off leash or without an E-collar in areas with quail and other upland birds as they assume they are there to hunt. Heck, my female even hunts trout when we're on the water!

She spent hours on a dock chasing minnows back and forth recently.

Wood Beak Dog breed Carnivore Tail
 
#13 ·
I personally don't think there are absolutes in measuring the breeds you've mentioned vs. the next in regards to temperament, it very much comes down to the lines of the dog and what the particular kennel is breeding for.

We were at an AKC hunt test this weekend, and saw some nationally recognized field trial setters from Tekoa lines that were cool as cucumbers when not working. There's something to be said for having such a well regarded kennel so close to you IMO. You can go over and watch all the prospective dogs work multiple times, chat training, that kind of stuff.
It's test season too, hit the AKC site and find a test near you (many happen on the Sauvie Island crane unit or in the Bend and Tygh Valley areas) and get out, talk to folks, watch dogs work, that kind of stuff.

I'm a big NAVHDA fan, there is a test mid August in the Willamette valley and you'd be welcome to get out, watch a variety of dogs work, and meet people that could answer any and all training questions you'd have. http://www.wvnavhda.com/

Just get out, get involved, get informed.
 
#15 ·
Pointers verses flushers.... There are days when I hunt grouse, huns or chukar where I wish that I had a pointer. However I tend to hunt pheasant most often and find that a flusher works best, so I tend towards field breed Labs. IME, and I am hunting places where pheasant populations are robust, pointers often don't pressure a bird enough for it to fly - especially when you have a few dozen birds running through thick cover. On the flip side I sometimes wish that I had a pointer to encourage huns to sit tight.

I can't agree with a poster's comments about a Lab being like a lineman doing ballet. Each dog works differently. I've had dogs that are like engineers in the field, working very precisely, taking note of the wind, where I am and where the bids are, and I have had dogs that are liked a stoked 13 year old in a skate park. It all comes down to the dogs personality.

Definitely get out to hunt tests. All are good. The camps that thump their chests that one series is better than another boils down to personal ego. My NAHRA MHRs will go head-to-head against a similar level NAVHDA / AKC dog and vice versa. I would choose your flavor by what is most prevalent in your area. I would also encourage you to run in hunt tests up to at least an "intermediate" level. Hunt tests provides objective gauges as to your training abilities and gives you objectives to work for. My lesson plans are much more organized prior to hunt test season. And if you are looking at a sire or dam w / o hunt test / field trial creds, you just never know what you will get. The guy bragging about how good his dog is means nothing to me - because you don' know what you don't know and very few have seen or much less hunted over a truly finished working dog.

IME any and all dogs from good breedings are very trainable. IME, like others said, you can't say that I want X and pick a breed to deliver. You can come close, but each dog has its own personality. Some are clowns, some are diligent workers with button down work ethic, some you can pressure, some give you more the softer you are with them. Some have gobs of self-confidence and some need more reassuring. It is up to you to figure out how the dog learns best and to develop lesson plans to suit the dog - not what some dude at Cabela's told you and not what your preconceived notion is. If you can afford it, work with a top notch pro trainer. The best that I know is Dan Hosford in Spokane. Most trainers know one way to train a dog, one temperament, one speed. Dan reads the dog and develops the program for the dog instead f forcing the dog to fit into a per-determined program because that is he easy thing to do when you have 18 client dogs to train twice per day.

By the time you get maybe your fourth dog to an upper level in hunt test / trials you will start to gain some insight. By maybe your 20th dog you'll start to develop real understanding. The dog thing, like many, is a journey best enjoyed one day at a time. Start with writing a check as large as you can afford to secure the best possible raw material, because you'll be forming a partnership that will last many years.
 
#16 ·
I'll cast my vote for an English setter. I've had two of them and aside from being amazing field dogs, they are incredible family dogs. I would challenge anyone to show me a sweeter, more caring and friendly animal that will also go chase birds like a trained assasin. Neither of ours liked the water much so you might consider that if you are taking it fishing a lot or hunting waterfowl, but I've seen setters that loved the water so who knows. They are ranging dogs that want to run so factor that into your lifestyle, but if you can support that then it is an excellent breed. Our first setter was an absolute machine and watching her lock on roosters was incredible. That being said, my pops had a field trained lab when I was born that was also a great upland dog. I was too young to remember but he swears she was one of the best upland dogs he ever had even though she spent most of her time retrieving ducks. Good luck in your search. Lots of good info above.
 
#17 ·
I'm with Tyler. I had to put down my 10 year old English setter in late March and I'm still broken up about it. He grew into the best upland bird dog I've ever had and we had a bond that was incredible. But like like the previous poster said, he was the most kind and caring dog I've ever seen. He had the ability to pickup on your emotions and became genuinely concerned if things weren't going well for you. There were so many occasions in which I just had to stop and study him and wonder silently if he really was a dog or a human. I've never seen a dog that had such a sweet and caring disposition. We've also had labs and I love them to death, but I'm currently researching breeders for another English setter. As long as I continue to hunt upland birds it will always be an English setter.
 
#18 ·
I'm a lab man having been owned by 4 of them. Great family dogs tolerating the poking and prodding of toddlers well - just yesterday my youngest grand daughter (14 months) was over at the house with her brother. She found my youngest lab (Cassie now a 3 year yellow female) and while standing on Cassie's paws she was twisting her nose - the dog response was a lick to her face (and beating it to safety as soon as the youngster moved on-LOL).

While primary a waterfowl hunter I also hunt upland birds (mostly pheasants) and my dogs are regular fishing partners. My labs have excelled at waterfowling and have been great fishing companions and have been creditable upland dogs; in fact my last two have been outstanding on pheasants. While labs are a flushing dogs I have found that if a start training them at a young age to stay within 30 yards while in the field the vast majority of the flushes are within easy gun range. As an added bonus both my current lab and the one before here point birds that hold (even though neither came from pointing stock).

If you are looking for a hard hunting upland dog there is a huge word of caution if considering a lab and that is exercise induced collapse (EIC). This is a condition where the dog basically losses control of its rear legs and hips; depending on the severity of the episode there may be a splay rear leg running , to complete dragging of the rear legs to a full collapse. EIC manifest itself during periods of high exercise and excitement and typically associated with a temperature spike as high as 107! The dogs are not in pain during the act and within 15 to 30 minutes typically recover without any apparent lingering effects though there is a chance of associated seizures.

My Cassie developed that condition during her second hunting season and is a classic dog for the condition; extremely athletic, agile, with tremendous stamina. She also has a great nose and at 18 months was doing things in the field that I don't find in dogs several years older - a bird finding machine. EIC is double recessive genetic disease that is pretty common in successful labs in field trails; Cassie had two grandparents that were field trail champions. Fortunately there is a genetic test to determine whether a dog is the recessive gene (either one or two copies) and if considering a lab with field trail dogs in their lineage making sure that both parents have been tested for EIC. If the lab breeder has not had the parents tested or refuses to do look for another breeder. Also if you are considering on later breeding your puppy make sure that neither parent has even a single copy of the recessive EIC gene. Responsible breeding can eliminate this condition from the breed.

Curt
 
#19 ·
A good point and a good reminder on why you don't pay a backyard breeder $300 for a dog "with papers", CND and EIC are genetic traits that any reputable breeder will genetically test for.

$1,200 is about the break even metric for a puppy that has been properly raised since birth with dew claws removed, exposed to water, birds, properly socialized; and who's parents have had OFA, PENN Hip, CND, EIC and retinal tests as well as a range of field titles. You can roll the dice on a discount pup, but if you are going to do this right that $1,200 will be one of the smaller investments you will make in this process when you factor in travel, your time, birds (no birds = no bird dog - I shoot for 200 birds in my dog's first year), etc.
 
#21 ·
Lucy, my english setter, could not be more loving to my 5 year old and 4 month old boys. Total bird machine, but just sat on my lap on the porch while I enjoyed a pardon and a old forester bourbon.

She is from bar-lee setters in bend and I already have my next dog in mind from them in 3 years.

Albeit, there are times when a bullmastiff sounds nice(a dog that walks to the mailbox and is exhausted)

But then I look at Lucy, and think, nah, this is my breed forever!
 
#22 ·
Hank is devoted to me 100% (and vice-versa), but whenever my Kids, former Bride, or frequently-visiting friends stop by, he just slathers them with affection. Hank is a consummate & driven hunter with a radar nose in the field and an absolutely perfect & gentle, loving family dog in the home. Most dogs can be whatever type of family dog you want them to be, but that, like hunting skills must be honed & shaped. You just can't give a dog, any dog, too much love & attention and doing so reaps huge rewards.
 
#25 ·
Get yourself the best looking dog you can, bring it into your family and make it part of your family, it will become the bird dog and companion you want because all it wants is to make you happy. Worry about tomorrow, tomorrow. As Jim said: Most dogs can be whatever type of family dog you want them to be, but that, like hunting skills must be honed & shaped. You just can't give a dog, any dog, too much love & attention and doing so reaps huge rewards.
 
#26 ·
We have a 1.5 year old Choc Lab for both upland, waterfowl and family. Ducks and geese obviously covered, she was retrieving geese at 7 months, but upland requires more training to keep her from roaming too far. Our upland is mostly grouse, but I have tried her on some pheasant farms around Spokane for the experience - works great, but requires on-going training to keep her from ranging too far or chasing missed roosters into the next county. I have used 30 feet leashes and currently experimenting with a training collar - so far it works good and brings her back. I grew up with labs for waterfowl, grouse and sometimes pheasants, chukar and always managed to get them to hunt and stay close for grouse. You can't beat a lab for a family dog, ok, maybe a golden retriever a close second!
 
#27 ·
I'm a lab man having been owned by 4 of them. Great family dogs tolerating the poking and prodding of toddlers well - just yesterday my youngest grand daughter (14 months) was over at the house with her brother. She found my youngest lab (Cassie now a 3 year yellow female) and while standing on Cassie's paws she was twisting her nose - the dog response was a lick to her face (and beating it to safety as soon as the youngster moved on-LOL).

While primary a waterfowl hunter I also hunt upland birds (mostly pheasants) and my dogs are regular fishing partners. My labs have excelled at waterfowling and have been great fishing companions and have been creditable upland dogs; in fact my last two have been outstanding on pheasants. While labs are a flushing dogs I have found that if a start training them at a young age to stay within 30 yards while in the field the vast majority of the flushes are within easy gun range. As an added bonus both my current lab and the one before here point birds that hold (even though neither came from pointing stock).

If you are looking for a hard hunting upland dog there is a huge word of caution if considering a lab and that is exercise induced collapse (EIC). This is a condition where the dog basically losses control of its rear legs and hips; depending on the severity of the episode there may be a splay rear leg running , to complete dragging of the rear legs to a full collapse. EIC manifest itself during periods of high exercise and excitement and typically associated with a temperature spike as high as 107! The dogs are not in pain during the act and within 15 to 30 minutes typically recover without any apparent lingering effects though there is a chance of associated seizures.

My Cassie developed that condition during her second hunting season and is a classic dog for the condition; extremely athletic, agile, with tremendous stamina. She also has a great nose and at 18 months was doing things in the field that I don't find in dogs several years older - a bird finding machine. EIC is double recessive genetic disease that is pretty common in successful labs in field trails; Cassie had two grandparents that were field trail champions. Fortunately there is a genetic test to determine whether a dog is the recessive gene (either one or two copies) and if considering a lab with field trail dogs in their lineage making sure that both parents have been tested for EIC. If the lab breeder has not had the parents tested or refuses to do look for another breeder. Also if you are considering on later breeding your puppy make sure that neither parent has even a single copy of the recessive EIC gene. Responsible breeding can eliminate this condition from the breed.

Curt
What is your advice for training them to stay close while hunting? Do you use a training collar?
 
#28 ·
CabinetGoat -
Don't use a e collar. As soon as I get them to come to me on demand I train them to return on my whistle - rewarding with a treat. At that young age we try to get a lot of time in the field in a variety of areas and while they are still a bit tentative I whistle them back as they get 15 yards or so out; once they reliable return on demand as their experience increases I allow them to range a bit further but always call them back from their exploring at a 30 yard mark. They soon develop the habitat of checking with me as they near that mark. By the time we reach a hunting situation they are well conditioned to stay close. It does take a lot of time in the field with them but in the end the two of us become a team.

Most of that training takes place during frequent walks- they don't need to be long but they do need to be safe areas and I find using a variety or new areas keep the training fresh. I also at the end of the training session whistle the dog back for her treat while showing here the leash. They soon return at just the sight of the leash which is a great safeguard while hunting where I want to take control of the dog - road crossing, etc.

Of course being retired helps to find the time for that training. However the time is well invested; by the time the dog is 3 or so we are able to spend hours in the field chasing game with only the occasional whistle and verbal praise for a nice retrieve.

Curt
 
#29 ·
CabinetGoat -
Don't use a e collar. As soon as I get them to come to me on demand I train them to return on my whistle - rewarding with a treat. At that young age we try to get a lot of time in the field in a variety of areas and while they are still a bit tentative I whistle them back as they get 15 yards or so out; once they reliable return on demand as their experience increases I allow them to range a bit further but always call them back from their exploring at a 30 yard mark. They soon develop the habitat of checking with me as they near that mark. By the time we reach a hunting situation they are well conditioned to stay close. It does take a lot of time in the field with them but in the end the two of us become a team.

Most of that training takes place during frequent walks- they don't need to be long but they do need to be safe areas and I find using a variety or new areas keep the training fresh. I also at the end of the training session whistle the dog back for her treat while showing here the leash. They soon return at just the sight of the leash which is a great safeguard while hunting where I want to take control of the dog - road crossing, etc.

Of course being retired helps to find the time for that training. However the time is well invested; by the time the dog is 3 or so we are able to spend hours in the field chasing game with only the occasional whistle and verbal praise for a nice retrieve.

Curt
 
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