Water temperature cooling down but sea-run cutthroat fishing heating up!

Discussion in 'Saltwater' started by Roger Stephens, Sep 29, 2013.

  1. Nick Clayton

    Nick Clayton Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2006
    Messages:
    4,146
    Likes Received:
    3,129
    I'm with Ira. I'm not gonna stop fishing simply because you say its bad. I've read a lot about fish in moving waters but little about stillwaters, yet I see well received trip reports from small streams and rivers all year round. Someone posts a stillwater report in August and people love to chime in and say how wrong it is. I just don't get it.
     
  2. Irafly

    Irafly Indi "Ira" Jones

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2003
    Messages:
    5,001
    Likes Received:
    2,625
    Location:
    Everett, Washington, USA.
    Oh GT. I'm sorry I didn't specifically point you out. But here you go. I don't agree with you, I haven't agreed with you and I'm likely not to agree with you. I have never doubted the effects of temperature on fish, I just have never bought your theory about stopping fishing all lakes once the top water temp hits what you consider to be to high and then insinuating that others are evil for not following your undocumented opinion. Nothing in the reports that Roger sent to me or that Smalma shared gave proof or even suggested undo stress on trout in stillwaters with access to a thermocline. Did you read that GT? Do you know who Smalma is and what he did for the state? Did you read his comment? I will continue to challenge you every time that you try to suggest that we close waters based solely on your own emotional responses with no proof to back it up.
     
  3. Don Freeman

    Don Freeman Free Man

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,477
    Likes Received:
    421
    Location:
    Olympia, WA
    That's the part that I can't substantiate. Don't get me wrong, when I fish cutts, I treat them care, heavy tippets, short fight, I don't touch them at all, nor drag them up on the beach or remove them from the water. That kind of rough treatment is likely to increase mortality for any fish, and I find it disrespectful.

    But, I can't find any literature that proves sea runs are any more "fragile" than other trout. When you have a premise that these fish are susceptible to certain temperatures, and predicate that the issue is important because "sea run cutthroat are a fragile fish" it helps to prove the basic premise.

    Please, don't feel defensive, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I haven't found any literature that reflects how sea runs respond to stress. I would like to have that data to help promote my position that sea runs should not be removed from the water, just as wild steelhead are protected. I want to request a rule change, but don't have any data to back me up.

    Got some?
     
  4. Chris Bellows

    Chris Bellows Your Preferred WFF Poster

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2003
    Messages:
    2,016
    Likes Received:
    1,205
    Location:
    The Salt
    honestly, i would move away from how fragile they are and propose the rule solely to prevent people from holding fish out of water for extended periods of time (photos, etc) which has a negative impact on c&r mortality regardless of how "hardy" a fish is. gills are not meant to be out of the water for any significant amount of time (cue the idiots wondering if a fish jumping is going to die :rolleyes:)

    the data on air exposure is the same for cutthroat as for steelhead. the fact that there are no hatchery sea-runs in puget sound (that i am aware of) and the state has little to no data on sea-run cutthroat populations in the vast majority of their range is enough reason to be proactive in protecting them.

    of course, more protective river regulations would have far greater impacts for cutthroat than a handling rule in the saltwater. there is far too much harvest allowed, especially the impact bait fishing has on undersized trout (the ones the 14" rule is supposed to protect)

    chris
     
  5. Jim Wallace

    Jim Wallace Smells like low tide.

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2004
    Messages:
    5,957
    Likes Received:
    735
    Location:
    Cranberry Country...a glorified coastal swamp!
    I sometimes find low oxygen warm water in the backwaters of the estuaries, and near the head of tidewater on some of my local creeks.
    At least twice over the years, I have had searun cutthroat expire after playing them in warmer, low-oxygen conditons. This has been in late Aug and early Sept.
    Both times the surface water felt moderately "warm" to my hand, in the low or mid 60's. Another factor was the kind of tide I was fishing at the times of these unfortunate expirations. I was fishing during a "neap tide" which is when the moon is at half flag and at least one full tide exchange isn't very big and thus doesn't move all that much water in and out.
    The incoming tidal push, moving as it does across the shallow estuary and over mud flats, doesn't have much oxygen dissolved in it by the time it floods in and backs up the river or creek. It is pushing in against slow moving low-gradient stream (lower river) water that hasn't been oxygenated for perhaps over a river mile (or a few), traps an extensive mass of low-oxygen warm water around the head of tidewater.
    After the incoming push hits the "lower high" of a neap tide, it is usually followed by a "higher" low tide. Not all that much run out.

    This mass of warm brackish, low-oxygen water can be a dangerous place for any cutthroat to be hanging out when a C&R angler is lurking nearby!
    I have noticed algal blooms (large reddish brown cloudy areas) that seem to persist for several days, and move back and forth in the brackish tidal stretch of a river before they flush out. They must suck a lot of oxygen from the water.
    Lately I'm trying to avoid fishing those places during those kinds of conditions.
     
    Roger Stephens likes this.
  6. Don Freeman

    Don Freeman Free Man

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2006
    Messages:
    1,477
    Likes Received:
    421
    Location:
    Olympia, WA
    of course, more protective river regulations would have far greater impacts for cutthroat than a handling rule in the saltwater. there is far too much harvest allowed, especially the impact bait fishing has on undersized trout (the ones the 14" rule is supposed to protect)

    chris[/quote]

    Watch for posts here on exactly that rule change. I'll be requesting angler support for c&r regs on waters that currently allow harvest, and that fish be kept in the water. I've been advised to target specific streams that have sea run fish in them, and will gladly look into waters that others recommend. I'm in the south end, and will concentrate on the area we're familiar with.
     
  7. Roger Stephens

    Roger Stephens Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2003
    Messages:
    1,317
    Likes Received:
    579
    Location:
    .
    Don:

    It is intuitive! It is when sea-run cutthrout go belly up:D! Just kidding and could not resist!

    Right off hand I didn't have any specific references on how sea-run cutthroat respond to stress except what I have observed after landing a fish. I do know that in Oregon particularly the southern coastal area many studies have been done on sea-run cutthroat by agencies and Oregon State University. With some digging there maybe some pertinent information available. Also, there were two conferences concerning sea-run cutthroat. They were called "Coastal sea-run cutthroat Symposium". The first was held in Reedsport, Ore. in 1995(?) and the second in Port Townsend in 2005. There is a wealth of information in the publications. I cannot find my copies but they are available on-line.

    Curt Kramer probably has some sources of possible references.

    Jim Wallace brings up a good point about dissolved oxygen. Higher water temperature = less dissolved oxygen= more stress to fish.

    Roger
     
  8. Chris Bellows

    Chris Bellows Your Preferred WFF Poster

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2003
    Messages:
    2,016
    Likes Received:
    1,205
    Location:
    The Salt
    sounds good, but shouldn't the state have to prove there are healthy enough numbers of wild trout to allow harvest first.... not the other way around? the state does not have the data but still allows harvest of resident rainbows (steelhead genetics) in watersheds with listed wild steelhead.

    any stream that has access to saltwater and below barriers should be c&r for all wild trout year round, not only to protect sea-run cutthroat but because resident rainbow trout are so important to steelhead genetics.

    i know this thread was started about sea-run cutthroat, but what is good for resident rainbows and juvenile steelhead is certainly good for native cutthroat.

    every west side stream that falls under the ESA for steelhead should have no harvest of trout and no bait allowed. anything else is irresponsible.
     
  9. Golden Trout

    Golden Trout Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2005
    Messages:
    562
    Likes Received:
    170
    Location:
    North Central Washington
    If you posted an article or journal here backing your side of the story, I missed it. What I do read in this thread and in many others are people who agree that temperatures are a real issue and not just my "emotional response". Closing down waters is not a matter of if but simply a matter of when and it will have little to do with my opinion. My emotions stem from my passion for a cold-water environment that I see disappearing at an alarming rate due to Global Warming. Your emotional insults stem form your own misgivings and do little to further any sensible debates. Nevertheless, know that I will return any and all condescending remarks should you continue to take that road.
     
  10. Irafly

    Irafly Indi "Ira" Jones

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2003
    Messages:
    5,001
    Likes Received:
    2,625
    Location:
    Everett, Washington, USA.
    Again GT I have never argued that sustained increase temperatures in salmonoid populations has a negative impact on the stress of the fish, what I don't agree with specifically in your argument for closing lakes is the thought that water temperatures at the lakes surface equates to unsafe temperatures for the fish within the whole lake. I was wrong on the 73 degree mark, it was 72 degree. I did find other articles that talked about optimal temperatures in lakes for feeding fell anywhere between 55 to 65 degrees for the aquatic insects that the fish feed on.

    How do you know where my logical (in your words "emotional") comments (you call "insults") stem from? Were you offended by my response that I would continue to disagree with you or that I would continue to challenge you? Were you offended that I mentioned that you respond with emotion versus logic about lakes? I only ask because you seem offended. Which of my remarks did you take as condescending? If you were offended, why did you choose to be offended by my remarks? If you were offended how does seeking offense further the debate?
     
  11. skyrise

    skyrise Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2003
    Messages:
    684
    Likes Received:
    79
    Location:
    everett, wa.
    I am with Smalma, as this water has washed the searun cutt fishing out for another year.
    and i didnt get started, dang !
    not sure if would be worth checking the creek mouths that run into the main river ?
     
  12. Nick Clayton

    Nick Clayton Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2006
    Messages:
    4,146
    Likes Received:
    3,129
    GT, believe it or not your opinion, nor the opinion of others on this board, does NOT constitute any sort of fact. You can babble on all you want about how horrible you think fishing stillwaters in warmer weather is, proving absolutely nothing to anybody, or you can do as you've been asked multiple times in this thread and others and provide some actual documented proof to back up your claim. Seems a pretty simple request, not sure why you continue to ignore it.