What do you think?

#61
I said I would put them in good water. Good water means water that produces fish. What's lame about that?
Only thing lame about it is the idea that the gentleman from new york is more likely to end up in more of the prime water then the local guy. If I hired a guide for a day I would want them to help me put my fly into the most likely water and help me to hook as many fish as possible. (that would be my expectation) Now though, that I am local, I am only going to be shown some of the good water, and the guy yesterday from newyork put his bead into spots that we are now avoiding, because your afraid of me coming back.

Again, I understand that, and I think I understand the logic behind it as well, but to be fair/less lame the local should get a price break, consistent with how many producing pockets/seems/boulders you have had him drift over with his fly on the other side of the boat :)
 

thewaker

Tight line takes ain't no fakes!!
#62
No beads here and no boats. Walk and wade for me.As a steelhead guide, believe it or not, my job is not necessarily to get you into"as many fish as possible" weather that's what you expect or not. My jobs is to give all my clients a fair chance at maybe hooking a fish or two. In that job are a million different scenarios that vary for each person you guide.

Any guide will tell you that there are days that you really like your clients and you get along well and will do a little more for them. That was the example I made with the New York guy scenario.The guy from New York may also need better water to fish because he is a terrible caster.Thats the only way I can give him a chance to catch one.That doesn't mean you are short changing everyone else. Maybe the local guy can make the cast in the good water that gets him his fish.Clients are different, and it's hard to guide everyone exactly the same, in fact it's not possible. Maybe this guy can make a cast you can't so I take him somewhere killer I wouldn't take you, maybe you can wade better than he can and that gets you into a different equally killer run that he couldn't wade. Maybe he doesn't like the water you like to fish, I will take him to water he likes to fish. Maybe he wants to fish dry flies only, that takes a whole new bag of tricks. Maybe you only want to fish sink tips in deeper runs......and on and on. It's endless. In addition to trying to put them in good water you are also trying fill the other expectations they have for the trip, how to learn a river right cach handed snap t, double haul, roll cast, steeple cast whatever they want to learn. There is more to it than meets the eye.
 

attack

Active Member
#63
I think you guys could answer your own question...let's say your not a guide...but on your home river you have maybe three or four spots if you are lucky that are super super dependable, were talking swinging steelhead so mabye if they are incredible they produce half the time. Now let's say you meet a new friend who also fishes the same river a lot. Its your first day fishing together...are you going to go to your super sweet overlooked spot no one knows about? Or are you going to fish productive water, just more obvious productive water?
 

Derek Young

Emerging Rivers Guide Services
#69
Derek,

Although I stated that guides are pimping the public resource, cuz obviously they are; I just said it in a less polite way. However, I also believe guides provide a valuable service, and there is nothing contradictory in saying that. I have fished with guides a few times and will be doing so next week in Mexico. The main reason is access to the fishery, since it's impossible to get to most of the places the fish live without a boat. But I'll be expecting more than just access because I anticipate fishing for species I haven't fished for before, and tho I've fished for bonefish, they are hard to see without a trained eye for it. So guides definitely provide a valuable service while pimping the public resource.

Sg
So, you're saying that guiding is immoral? Guides have an even greater responsibility to the resource in my opinion, and should act accordingly.
 

Salmo_g

Well-Known Member
#70
Derek,

Uhm, no offense intended, but you're making shit up. I never said guiding is immoral. That may be your value and your statement, but it isn't mine. Please don't attribute that to me.

Pimping probably isn't the best choice of words, although it accurately describes what guides do: they sell access, means, and methods to catch publicly owned fish to private customers who pay them for the service. I guess that pimp = salesman in this context. Because the resource is publicly owned, I agree with you that guides should feel an ethical obligation or responsibility to be advocates and activists on behalf of that resource. But there is no legal requirement that they do so; it's just in their self interest to do so.

Sg
 
#71
Here's one scenario I've heard some DB's using. Let's say someone calls up a guide, wanting to get in on a very specific hatch. They tell the guide what hatch they want to fish, which are usually all in the timing. The guide calls up the client, saying the hatch is popping off in _____ stretch of the river, time to move. The client calls back the next day, cancelling the trip, only to go in alone. They just wanted inside information. This is one reason explained to me by a guide for having a non-refundable deposit. It probably happens less with hatches, then people trying to time out when sea and lake-run fish are moving into rivers. Is this a freak scenario, or do alot of guides have this problem
 

Philster

Active Member
#72
Derek,

Uhm, no offense intended, but you're making shit up. I never said guiding is immoral. That may be your value and your statement, but it isn't mine. Please don't attribute that to me.
Sg
Really? Calling someone a Pimp isn't offensive? Does that make the river a whore. If we fish without a guide are we seducing the river or raping it? I say again good sir. We are men of action.
 

Charles Sullivan

ignoring Rob Allen and Generic
#73
Being offended doesn't make you right. Grow some skin guys. Guides pimp rivers. It is what it is. No need to fight. Nothing to see here. Let's all move along now.

Go Sox,
cds
 

Philster

Active Member
#74
The guide calls up the client, saying the hatch is popping off in _____ stretch of the river, time to move. The client calls back the next day, cancelling the trip, only to go in alone. They just wanted inside information.
Happens all the time. Hell, you want to know when the best time to fish a river is, call the best guides and ask for openings. Don't go then! :rofl: A smart guide will ask, "what's your timeframe"? I was working for a shop with multiple locations and was screwed by co-worker. Giving him info for customers on shore access and timing on stripers from shore in the SF Bay almost everyday since I fished daily before work. One time, for my own use, I call him up about timing for sight fishing leopard sharks on a flat up north by him, which I knew he fished, and I get "Nah man. There are no fish there" and he hangs up! Decision time, do I cut him off? Do I feed him shit so his customers end up on a mudflat with a dropping tide and they stop trusting him?

All the stuff that's being talked about in this post goes down all day, everyday. Guiding is a business. Cost benefit analysis goes on in a guides head minute by minute. Whether it's passing up a good run to try to fit in a better one before dark because this guy fishes so slow, or passing a hole because you've already got this guy into fish and this is a magic spot you want to save for tomorrow when maybe your client has gone fishless.

You're managing a fishing day. You have to make choices.
 

KerryS

Ignored Member
#75
Really? Calling someone a Pimp isn't offensive? Does that make the river a whore. If we fish without a guide are we seducing the river or raping it? I say again good sir. We are men of action.
I have heard many refer to guiding as pimping the river. I always thought it was an amusing connection. The river may not be a whore but she can be a fickle bitch. Men of action do not idle their time away on a river.