Discussion in 'Spey Clave' started by sandspanker, May 10, 2011.
We all ..or most of us.. get there. It's a work in progress. Blinders are a handicap.
I agree 600 grains on this stick is money.
Amazing the differant thoughts on line size with any rod. For example I fish two rods mentioned here.
On my Loop 8124Y ( the original version) I fish a 540 compact skagit with tips up to 160 grains.
On my Deer Creek 13' 7/8 I fish I fish a 510 compact skagit with tips up to 160 grains also.
I tried the 540 on the DC and found it to heavy for my taste. I tried a 570 compact skagit on the Loop and again found it to heavy for my liking..
I would suggest calling your local shop and ask if you can test drive differant heads, and pick the one that works best for YOU!
One thing that is not touched on often enough is picking a tip that is proportionate to the head. If your throwing 100gr tips on a 600+gr head, at some point someone has steered you wrong. Here is how I go about lining a rod.
Decide the overall length of the head and tip you want to throw +/- a foot or two. This is often a determined by casting style, preference, and rod length.
Pick the tip you would like to use on the rod with in reason. 17' of T-17 on a 5wt is not within reason.
Pick a head that compliments the grain weight of the tip, meets the overall length you desire in step one, and falls within the grain window of the rod. I generally fall at the top of the grain window for Skagit and bottom for Scandi. Keep in mind that the weight of the tip is figured into this.
People often over line rods to compensate for bad form. This isn't always the case, there are situations where it is beneficial. An overlined rod can turn what could be a beautiful spey cast into a lob, if a lob is all you aspire to then a baitcaster is much more effective. A properly lined rod cast with good form should result in the line jumping of the waters surface effortlessly. If it feels sluggish something isn't right.
Well today I had a long talk with a guy in a fly shop and he looked at my rod and took a good guess at a new skagit head. He said if it were him he would put a airflo 540 gr on my 8wt. or a 570 if I want a little more wt to it. I went with the 540 that he would choose. So today went out on the shoug and casted. I need too SLOW WAY DOWN when I did I casted good still need work on my anchor placement and little tweaks but all in all I think the 600 gr was a over kill and the 540 will make me a better caster. Am planing on going to the clave this weekend so maybe I'll learn something that will help me start to cast better and better. Then maybe I'll get to touch some steel!!! I can't wait.
T Dave, never mind. You are too sure of your own opinion that mine does not matter.
From a trusted web source for the rod that I hold in my hands while casting a skagit line:
Sage Z Axis 8129-4 - Kiene's Info: A favorite among the Kiene's staff. This is a great rod for winter steel head and Chinook salmon. This rod really excels with a Rio Skagit 600-650 and any amount of T-14 you want to throw.
Clearly based on this recommendation I'm Way overlined for this rod, aren't I? Sure, there are others that agree with you in that I'm over the high line. They like less grains in the line. I think you know less about my line needs and my casting style, preferences and skill level than you know about your own. I offered my actual experience with my line and this rod. I also added that my custom line is closer to 570, a full 100+ grains lighter with a slightly longer head than my 660 skagit compact. Kiene's recommends 600-650. I started 10 grains above that.
I answered the question. I cast the line. I put it out pretty far for someone of my experience level. I don't care what you think about my input. My input was not directed to you.
What you've done is turned the opening question and the thread's direction into "your using too much" and many others have followed your lead. In that case, put in your answer to the question: 600 or more is too much, and leave it at that.
Agreed, not sure why this ruffled some feathers- Throwing more grains than needed is like driving a dragster to the supermarket, it works, but why bother ???
Ive cast the rod in question, and not only would I totally dis agree with kieny's recommendation of the z as king rod, but anything above 550-575 sounds very over lined to me . Today I Cast a 9/10 14' snowbee with a 630 skaj, and huge nookie flies with bullet weights. This rods a monster compared to the z 8129... And it wasn't under loaded at all -
If you like lots of grains, great, but don't think it's the way to go over learning good casting fundamentals...
But, to each his own, if your happy casting the way you do, great, but don't expect everyone to buy it if they have made the commitment to learning how to cast well -:ray1:
Quote - "with any amount of T-14".... ha ha, Good one. If it is posted on the web, it must be true! lol
I am reminded of the casting demo Tim Rajeff put on at the Bellevue show about for years ago where he cast a 5 wt line on a 9 wt rod, then cast a 9 wt line on a 5 wt rod. Both times he was able to get line out, but he had to make compensations to his casting stroke and the performance of the rod(s) suffered.
That rod with those grains is under performing and not working the way it was designed to. Sure, over lining will help compensate for your inability to load it, but is that good advice for others?
I'm glad that you included the information regarding you are using a 13' 8 wt. The reason I say this is because if you had say a Meiser Highlander 15' 7-9, or Loomis Greased Line 15' 8/9 wt, you could easily cast an 800 gr long-belly line with it and not be overloading the rod. In fact, I fish my Meiser Highlander 16' 8-10 exclusively with an 800 gr long-belly 8 wt line and some who have tried it with this line think it is too light.
That said, there are very few 13' 8 wt that could cast an 8 wt long-belly without being overloaded. The vast majority of 13' 6 wt rods were simply not designed to cast long-belly lines. Instead, they were designed to cast Skagit, Scando, short-belly lines. Some are OK with an 8 wt mid-belly, but very few can cast an 8 wt long-belly.
Therefore, I'm glad you specified the length of rod you were using, otherwise, I would have simply said of course a 13' 8 wt can cast more than 600 grs, which would have been useless to you because I would have been thinking of the very few that can cast an 8wt long-belly.
The only good advice is yours, clearly. So what should I be casting on my 8129 Z? Perhaps my 570 grain custom from Steve Godshall? Well, that is what I'm using. But the question that started the thread is who is using over 600 on an 8wt? Some are, some have, and some may even despite your attempts to teach them otherwise. There are more right answers than there are people providing them.
The best way to help someone loose weight isn't to say "You're too FAT!" But, to take a personal interest, invite them out for a hike...and let them come to that conclusion. We all start somewhere, and for many of us it's overweight. I for one woundn't say 660 on an 8wt wouldn't work, when I've heard and seen otherwise. Pesonal opinion...much to heavy for myself, but thats me.
Yup, I agree. Even I bet as your casting improves you'll move down to a 570 and like it even better.
I've fished with McCune and O'Donnell, and both prefer in excess of 600 grains on the 8129 Z axis. I for one would not refer to them as hack casters. But thats just me.
What do they know... I'd rather get my fishing advice from anonymous internet posters.
And there it is, mystery solved , question answered -:thumb: