Washington Fly Fishing Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Why would I buy an 8 weight for steelhead?

15K views 154 replies 50 participants last post by  Chris Scoones 
#1 ·
I was finishing Art Scheck's book, Fly Fish Better, when I got to the chapter on Appropriate force. In his tests, which I trust because he is right about the knots in my own tests, he basically states that his 5 weight does better in his pulling force tests then the 8 weight that he was using. ***Question*** Why am I using an 8 weight for Steelhead when I could be using my 5? I like my five better but I have allways been afraid it would break. I live in Buffalo and the steelhead are huge - to me at least. Does anybody fish bigger sized steelhead with a 5 weight? And has anybody broke a 5 weight fishing for steelhead?
 
#3 ·
Yeah, Pan is right, you must have misread something there because an 8wt is WAY stronger than a 5wt.
 
#4 ·
Yeah tough one there. A five stronger than an eight?? HMMM> Personally I would never use a five weight for steelhead. Sure it can be done, but you have to think about the fishes health also. Are you going to take 30 minutes to land a steelhead and say "yeah I used a five weight NO PROBLEMS!" and risk the fishes health with a prolonged needless fight. Or get that fish in quick like with an eight weight and back on its way. Youve got to think about the well being of the fish. I usually use an eight weight single hander for smaller coastal streams. This year I hooked a beautiful fresh wild hen of about twelve pounds. The run was small with a lot of willows on the edges and other snags. This fish went nuts and when she finally "relaxed" a little mid stream I really put some pressure on her to try to get her in quick and keep her away from the snags. The eight weight was really taxing, It did the job but it was feeling it for sure. Needless to say the next day I brought my nine weight! I think you should always try and get the fish in as quick as possible. If you pull the hook OH well. At least you got the grab. Its not all about getting em to the beach and getting that hero shot. Id say stick with an eight weight. If you use your five and get a big fish then you may be in the market for a new five weight or checking in to your rod manufactures warranty policies. Kevin
 
#5 ·
I like to use my 5/6 deer creek spey for steel. A 5/6 spey is like an 8wt single hander in a strength comparison, and maybe 10 minuets has been my max fight time. Granted the biggest fish on the rod has been a somewhere in the range of 15lb, but that is a very rare fish in my experience. Put the wood to'em and trust your knots, don't baby the fish, and a lighter rod will be ok. I apply a surprising amount of force with that little rod, and you must use the current to your advantage also to make the fight as quick as possible. Most people you see don't use the rod because they're afraid of loosing the fish, like some dude up on the sauk the other day, which was freaking ridiculous... Now I use a 5 weight single hander for summer steel on smaller rivers, and it works great. Where I fish, it is sweeping runs of sorts so there isn't really many obstructions in the way of fighting fish. But if you're steelhead are of big average size I would suggest the larger rod certainly. And keep in mind the health of the fish like Kevin Giusti said, if you can even budge the fish, and the fight is running longer than 15 minuets, you are seriously undergunned. I would break it off. Its funny though, I've seen pretty experienced anglers, fight fish, and they just don't know how to put the WOOD to'em!
 
#6 ·
Does Art Scheck have any recommendations on 5 weights that can throw a Type V sinktip with a couple of large flies and some split shot?

The size of the rod has never been about the size of the fish, it's about the size of the rig and the flies being used. The claim Scheck is making is akin to arguing that the you should use 6x tippet when casting a fly tied on on a 4/0 hook.
 
#9 ·
The size of the rod has never been about the size of the fish, it's about the size of the rig and the flies being used.
Now, that's about one of the silliest statements I've seen on this website in a while.

Including the size of the fly, there are several other important criteria used in selecting a certain weight of rod to use for your quarry. Those include fishing conditions (i.e. is it frequently windy?). For example, many average sized bonefish could be handled just fine on a salty six weight, but an 8 weight is a popular line weight because bones are often found in windy settings.

The size and fight of the fish is a HUGE consideration. Often tuna like little flies, sometimes #4's. A six weight would toss a #4 clouser just fine, but using one for tuna fishing would be like taking a knife to a gun fight. Not appropriate. Additionally, because of the runs these fish take, they need reels with a lot of backing. Hanging a reel that accommodates 300+ yards of backing and has a skookum drag just wouldn't quite balance my 6 weight very well.

I'll be visiting La Paz in June, and a pretty popular fly for me when inshore fishing is a 1/0 Crease fly. It's pretty light, and with heavier leader and a saltwater taper line, my stout 5 and 6 weight will cast and turn these flies over just fine.

I'll remember your comment "The size of the rod has never been about the size of the fish . . . " when I hook in to that 40 pound roosterfish or 25 pound yellowfin and be happy that I elected to use a 10 weight or larger rod (because of the size of the quarry selected) instead of one sized per your criteria. :thumb:
 
#7 ·
In the book Scheck keeps the rods low and pulls to the right or left. He doesn't say that the rods are or are not stronger only that in the tests that he could pull harder with the 5 weight. --- And Capt awesome, My original Idea to use the 5 weight comes from the fact that I use my 8/9 spey on steelhead and my 5 for trout. In some of the small streams with big steelhead I still look like a crazy with that huge rod on a little stream. I have no problems swinging Marrabou muddlers and spey flies and some split shot with the 5 weight and the right leader. I was allways worried that the 5 weight would break. I think the 5 would be perfect on the small streams with big fish.
 
#10 ·
Rod size becomes important as the fish gets closer to you. You can play a big fish on a 5wt when he is 100' out. It's lifting power up close that becomes an issue. I love light tackle, but the last 20' of the fight is the tough part. When I've made eye contact with the fish, I would just as soon he spit the hook and swim away strong.
 
#11 ·
I think that when people hear the word "Steelhead" locally, they picture the big winter fish. In most of the places around the US the Steelhead are not really that big. There are several runs that I fish with a 5 or 6 wt (did it with a 4wt all through college when finances were tight) and adult Steelhead in the 5-10lb class rarely take more than 2-3 minutes to get in. I caught several hatchery winter Steelhead on the Stilly this year with my 6 wt, and some of the skinny Deer Creek summer run missles, and I bet I wasn't fighting any of those fish more than two minutes.

I do disagree partially with Richard because I think the rod of choice for Steelhead is mostly for what you are actually throwing. I often break out the 10 wt XP in the winter time for the big profile streamers. This is the same rod that has been broken twice on 30-35lb Albacores, but I never once felt like I hurt it fighting Steelhead.

Most folks throw an 8wt because it is the lightest weight rod which cuts the winter time wind adequately, it can throw the bigger winter time streamers even though it can be work if your casting isn't the best, and it has enough backbone that you can pressure the natives quite a bit. For me the single most important part of Steelhead fishing is pressuring the natives and getting them back swimming quickly.

I do agree with the blue water fishing that Richard was talking about. The average fish is just bigger, meaner, and tougher.

(I would recommend that you shouldnt be lifting at all when the fish is in close. You cant lift it out of the water and any angle on the rod that isnt down and towards the bank is just pressure that gravity counteracts handily with the fishes weight)
 
#12 ·
There is no industry standard measurement for rod power. It's perfectly possible for a five weight to have more power than an eight weight, especially if they're made by two different manufacturers. That being said, I'd be extremely suspect of a manufacturer that sold me a five weight that had as much balls as my eight weight rods. My guess is it wouldn't feel too great tossing an AFTMA #5 line to trout, which is what it's real consideration should be.
 
#13 ·
A factor for me is how quickly you can bring a fish to hand for release. I have caught steelhead on my 5 wt, and 8 wt. The longer a fish fights, the more lactic acid builds up in its muscle tissue, and the more chance there is of it not surviving the fight. It is my own personal belief that you will bring a fish to hand more quickly on a heavier rod than a lighter rod, and that you will increase the odds of the fish's survival if you do so.

My $.02
 
#16 ·
iagreeiagreeiagreeiagree

Amen; Citori speaks gospel. Does that mean a person should use a 12 weight for trout fishing. No, it's about balance. Size your outfit according to the task and conditions, and with consideration for the fish's health so you catch 'em another day.
 
#17 ·
We have to stop arguing about exceptions on this site. Nobody can say that a 5wt has more power than an 8wt. You can mention some weird exceptions or different manufacturers but that is about the only explanation.



WORD to the olde tymer.

If you find yourself hunting an elephant with a 22, you probably misread something or took some poor information to heart.

I land big and feisty chum on an 8wt all the time but the thought of landing a big and feisty chum on a 5wt is damn near a laugh.
 
#18 ·
I may be using my 6 wt for lake fishing this year at a certain lake with some large stocked triploids. Last year, i had to bust off the biggest trout I ever hooked on my 4 wt because I couldn't bring it to hand. It was 8 or 10 lbs. I could get it near the boat, but then it would turn away and nose down into the weeds, overpowering my gear, even though it was getting tired. After several failed attempts to bring the fish alongside, I became worried about the fish's survival and had to bust it off. I was using 4X tippet.
It seems to be tougher to bring a fish alongside a canoe than to the bank. Last Spring, I found out the hard way that there is danger to the rod in "high sticking" a strong fish to the net.
 
#19 ·
Why I feel inexorably drawn to the role of devil's advocate in regards to this threads is beyond me but, here goes:
The "weight" of a rod and the "power" of a rod are not necessarily the same thing.
The weight rating of a rod is directly related to the weight of the line it is meant to cast. More precisely the weight, in grains, of the first 30 ft of the fly line. So it follows that a five weight rod is built to load with head weight (first 30 ft of line) of 134 to 146 grains.
The is the meaning of the "weight" rating of a rod. Nothing more and nothing less. The weight rating does not say anything about the "power" of a rod or its ability to wear out a fish quickly.
That being said, the kinds of leaders and tippets that are commonly used on a five weight rod would require the angler to use techniques that could prolong a fight to the point of exhausting a fish.
So..... rather than debate the proper weight rating of a rod suitable for steelhead or any other fish, perhaps it would be more relevant to discuss the optimum leader strength or at least take leader strength into account in a discussion about the ability of a rod to bring a fish quickly to hand. I would also point out that fishing rods do not exhaust fish, anglers exhaust fish. In other words, technique is a far more relevant factor in bringing fish quickly to hand than choice of weight rating. For those of you who think I am suggesting the use of a 2 wt for tuna fishing, let me say that this is NOT what I am suggesting.
Consider this, what would be more effective in bringing a fish quickly to hand, a moderate action 6wt that flexes all the way into the grip with a 20 lb leader or a fast action 8 wt with a 10 lb leader and an angler who is trying not to lose the fish?
Flame On!

JonB
 
#22 ·
Consider this, what would be more effective in bringing a fish quickly to hand, a moderate action 6wt that flexes all the way into the grip with a 20 lb leader or a fast action 8 wt with a 10 lb leader and an angler who is trying not to lose the fish?
Flame On!

JonB
I get your point but I don't think anyone is arguing with you either. Anyone who is an experienced angler knows that there is a lot of skill in fighting and controlling fish on your line.

Furthermore, a huge fish on a strong tippet on a dinky rod will break the rod not prove that you can land a huge fish on a small rod because you have to consider the fishes health and try and release it as quick as possible (at least with wild steelhead). If you land a chum on a 5wt in a reasonable amount of time it probably was spawning and weak.

No matter what, a 5wt doesn't have the power like an 8wt to horse a fish NO MATTER WHAT.

If I were to tie a weight to a line and lift it with a 5wt and than lift the weight with an 8wt, the 5wt would surely bend more and break first.
 
#20 ·
I caught a Chum on a 5wt. Was fishing the Skagit one time a few years ago for sea runs and or Dollies behind the Chums. I was using heavier than usual leader so I couldn't break it off. My 5wt was doing the double bend for a while until I got the fish close enough to unhook.

Those fish are hardy as it swam off after the hook dropped out of it's mouth. If I had know it wasn't hooked hard I would of given it some slack so I would of over stressed my rod. But one never knows does one?????

Jim
 
#25 ·
Sickclown,

When I first read your question I was going to answer that to steal the 8 weight would just be wrong. Now I see you're asking something else, but the something else isn't entirely clear.

". . . his 5 weight does better in his pulling force tests then the 8 weight that he was using." I haven't read the book, so I have to ask, what does the author mean? I haven't heard of "pulling force tests" as applied to fly rods. Fly rods used for saltwater fishing are measured by their "lifting power." That is the amount of dead weight a given rod can lift off the ground with the rod grip held level. In that test, I think few, if any, 5 wts can dead lift more weight than 8 wt rods.

Like most anglers, I don't lift steelhead vertically with my rod. I pull sideways toward the beach. Still, any of my 8 wt rods will pull more weight with the rod bowed than will any of my 5 wts without breaking.

Without more information about Mr. Scheck's pulling force test, the reported results simply don't make sense.

The lightest line wt rod I've ever caught steelhead with was an old Scientific Anglers 6 wt fiberglass rod. I was under-gunned in that instance, not that the rod couldn't do the job, just that it couldn't do so comfortably nor quickly. The lightest graphite single hand rod I use for steelhead is a 7 wt. However, it's a medium action rod, and I've handled 5 and 6 wt graphites from manufacturers who build rods stiff as fireplace pokers. Those rods likely have the same lifting power as my medium action 7 wt (and many of those stiff rods comfortable cast lines one or two sizes heavier than their ratings). Somewhere in that range appears to be the lower end of rod wts that steelheaders generally find comfortable for steelhead fishing.

If you prefer fishing your 5 wt over your 8 wt, give it a try and see if it's the best adapted solution for the lines, flies, water, and steelhead you fish for.

If it weren't for two handed rods, I'd stick with my 8 wt for winter fishing and 7 wt for floating line summer fishing.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.
 
#28 ·
The tests he uses are to have somebody hold a digital fish scale on one end. On the other end he has 25 feet of fly line and his rods. He pulls on the rod and the scale gives him a number. When he pulls in the normal position with the rod pointing upward he gets hardly any pull. When he uses the butt of the rod and keeps the rod low and pulls to the left or right he gets more force. He is using the rod and not the tip. In his pull tests, and he even says it in the book, the 8 weight doesn't match the force he can pull with. It has something to do with leverage or something. He calls it shortening the lever. I can't believe nobody has read this book.
 
#37 ·
I should read it, but I gotta call BS... Based on your description, it's more about him as an angler and how hard he can pull rather than the rod. A 9 foot rod in a 5wt and 8wt will be night and day in the kinda pull someone can put on a fish. Both the 5wt and the 8wt can be pulled into the same taco shape, which means that the lever is the same size. Just because *he* can't pull it that way doesn't mean that the pressure can't be applied.

Now if he's comparing 2 different length rods, then that makes a huge difference precisely due to leverage.

-- Cheers
-- James
 
#29 ·
If he is "short pumping" then you can get an incredible amout of power out of a lighter weight rod without hardly stressing the rod. I think this is what he could be talking about. If it is then that is exactly what I do with big fish on a light rod. A really good tool I learned blue water gear fishing.

If he is short pumping the 5wt and not short pumping the 8 wt then the test isnt really fair.
 
#30 ·
He does the same test for the 2 rods. With the 5 weight pointing upward he gets 11 ounces. With it low and at the side he gets 2 pounds 12 ounces. With the 8 weight pointing up he gets 1 pound 3 ounces. With the 8 weight low and to the side he gets 2 pounds 10 ounces of pull. He says he could get 3 with both hands probably. He says the bent rod is a shorter lever or something. But in his tests he is saying he can pull harder with the 5 weight. So if he's pulling harder he can get the fish there faster. So it's not hurting the fish. Sorry but I think I believe the guy. I've been doing his knot tests and the bimmini tippets with the ligature knot leaders are way stronger then what I was using before.
 
#36 ·
Clown,

it's a complex issue.

Rod power is a function of stiffness. The stiffer the rod is overall, the more power it can apply to the cast, and the more pressure it can apply to the fish with an equal amount of force from the angler. This can be amply demonstrated by doing a simple deflection test of the two rods side-by-side with equal amounts of weight--which is exactly how most rod manufacturers measure the power of their rods and assign the AFTMA line rating.

Unfortunately, comparing rod power using their AFTMA line designations tends to mislead because calling a rod an "eight weight" or a "five weight" tells us next to nothing about it's actual power, which is where the author of your book is running into trouble. All the AFTMA line designation on a rod tells us is that the rod manufacturer thinks that the rod should cast the line its rated for. If you want to understand this more, go to www.common-cents.info and read up. There's another site out there that indexes rods by manufacturer using the Common Cents system of measuring rod power, which will give you an idea of how varied rod power can be for a given AFTMA rating.

Personally, I think it's irresponsible that the author made a blanket statement that a five weight is a better choice than an eight weight, especially considering how rare it is that a five weight truly overpowers an eight weight. It shows a lack of understanding regarding the dynamics of rod design, and while that's not so bad in and of itself, it's going to lead anglers to undergun themselves against a precious resource. If he was going to make observations on the "pulling strength" of rods, he would have been better serving his readers to lead them to understand the importance of having the necessary power, not the necessary line rating.
 
#31 ·
Perhaps it comes down to this....many have fished before us. We read of the gear/lines/flies they used on certain fish. I'm sure they learned from those before them.....an 8 weight has become a go to weight rod for the history of PNW targets including some trout and/or certain salt water species. An 8 weight allows diversity and can be easily used for many trout poulations as well as most salmon populations. I will grant rod building technology is changing...and at great leaps.... (some 6's act as 8's and so on) I can understand the occasional day when you have only your five weight and opportunity presents itself...but to specifically target certain species undergunned seems to be :confused: especially if catching and releasing. 6 to 9 weight is good for most steelhead in washington ...... 5 is just a little sly in many opportunities (IMHO...of course)
 
#33 ·
It's funny, everybody says the same thing. Steelhead = 8 weight. Yea, I know that's what we've been taught. What I'm saying is that if Scheck is right then WHY? If I can pull just as hard with a 5 weight, or harder in his tests, then why would I bother with the 8. And I'm only talking about the pulling strength, not the breaking strength.
 
#39 ·
It's funny, everybody says the same thing. Steelhead = 8 weight.
I don't think anybody says that.

There are a lot of people in this thread who don't say that.

I think most guys on this site don't always use an 8wt. for steelhead. We can all agree it is a matter of what size fish we are targeting.

It is a good all around rod for your first steelhead/salmon rod; we can all agree about that as well.

Strangely, some of us are still arguing if a 5wt is better for fighting big fish than an 8wt.

This surely is not true.

We must have run out of stuff to argue about?

How about this: a 1wt line is better for spey casting on my 9140-3 9/10 wt than anything else.....or is it?.......Discuss.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top