Wild Steelhead in the Pike Pl Fish Market?

Discussion in 'Steelhead' started by MarkM, Feb 25, 2008.

  1. jasmillo

    jasmillo Member

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    Nope, I didn't. I guess you missed the biggest point I was making:

    Do you really think the mongers in Pike Place Market selling Salmon and Steelhead to tourists from Nebraska could care less about what 10, 20, or even 100 flyfishers in WA have to say? Nope, if the tourist stop buying, they'll stop selling. So, go ahead and go to Nebraska, New York, New Hampshire, Illinois, etc. and stop the tourists from buying. In fact, I challenge every member of this site to send an email or call the monger in question here and complain. I will go down and check their stand everyday. My guess is that they will continue to sell it no matter how much we complain.

    Besides, I don't know enough about the issue to argue it with anyone- this is my first year steelheading and my second year in WA. I know that wild steelhead are in peril but I don't know the data enough to debate the issue with anyone. All I can add to this discussion is my experience- if there is a market people will buy it. Kill the market and wild steelhead will not be sold but changing the minds of the 300 million folks in the country buying it is probably not likely.

    However, if you stop the source by working with the few tribes able to catch and sell wild steelhead commercially you have a chance. Eco-type tourism, guiding, etc. has worked in many other parts of the world, why not with the WA tribes that have access and intimate knowledge of this resource?

    Anyway GT- you obviously have alot of knowledge and time to spend on this issue, how come I have never seen protests down at the market organized by you? How come you aren't there every other day with signs and information?

    On the other hand...from the tone of your posts it seems as if you are just another :mad: little man who likes to spout off from behind a keyboard. Sad because you seem like a passionate person when it comes to this issue. However, you can't even have a discussion with other fisherman who share your concerns without getting negative. My guess is that your passion clouds your knowledge and you end up doing more harm then good.....
     
  2. gt

    gt Active Member

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    pretty simple, i don't live in seattle or that immediate area. i am >2hrs from the pike street market. i can guarantee you that if i was in that immediate area, i would be down there. so, i do the little i can in my locale, each and every day.

    without everyone attending to these issues, nothing will ever get done.
     
  3. fredaevans

    fredaevans Active Member

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    I can't speak about how the 'little vendor' will view this, but I can tell you how the 'big guys' may. 4 winters ago my local Albertson's (Ashland, Oregon) had 'fresh wild steelhead' under glass in the meat market.

    Had a nice chat with the Store Manager, with Oregon Game Regs in hand, and advised him if he wanted to really 'piss off' a lot of his male customers that was a good place to start. Checked back a few days later ... and no 'fresh wild steelhead' in sight. Called a few fellows I know and asked them to check other Albertson's stores in Northern Oregon.

    Not one had them on display. Point of all this is you may not be able to get the little guys attention, but you CAN get the major retailers to listen up.

    Fred
     
  4. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

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    Transport, who is trucking wild steelhead? Shipping? Rail?

    Packaging, Ice? Styrofoam boxes?

    Supplies nets and floats?

    Equipment, boats, moorage, fuel?

    There are a lot of people making money off this. If they can be identified pressure can be applied.

    It's not certain that this fishery could survive the light of day.

    An advertisement in a local paper:

    These businesses are curently profiting from the indiscriminate killing of endangered species:

    Bob's trucking.

    Acme Railroad

    Smith Ice

    Joe's Marina & Fuel



    These businesses are contributing to the extinction of Washington's salmon and steelhead by participating in a destructive fishery that will eventually result in the destruction of this resource. PLEASE URGE THEM TO STOP!!!
    Paid for by Washingtonians Fighting for Fish
     
  5. ak_powder_monkey

    ak_powder_monkey Proud to Be Alaskan

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    Try writing your congressman to get the law changed.
     
  6. gt

    gt Active Member

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    thanks fred, for that wonderful example of a single individual getting involved. so while people post here giving lip service to caring about fish, next to no one is willing to take the simple steps to help out. flyfishermen as conservation minded???? does not look like that to me based on all of the waffling going on in this thread as well as a couple of others.

    get involved folks, it won't hurt a thing to try and educate others, in fact, it might help in some way to raise the bar for those intent on killing the last wild fish.
     
  7. Derek Day

    Derek Day Rockyday

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    First, these rivers that the tribes are harvesting from--how bad are they actually. Last I checked, it was Puget Sound steelhead that are threatened--not endangered--and peninsula fish weren't listed. That of course is not to say that those populations shouldn't be listed, or that PS fish shouldn't be listed endangered.

    I also think that people give the tribes way too much credit for the declining populations. Do they have an impact? Of course. Are they the largest impact? Definitely not. If the tribes weren't taking these fish they'd be going to commercials or to sports fishermen. These fish either have to be incidental bycatch, or part of 50% of the ALLOCATED catch. But it would seem to me that unless there is a spring Chinook run they are targeting, these would be allocated fish (I could be way off target here). If this is true, the government gave them the go ahead to catch these fish. If this is the case, and please someone correct me if I’m wrong, we should be looking towards the people who said that there was in fact a sustainable yield of native steelhead.

    The problem is an overall management issue. It's not just the tribes, who are bound by federal law (in most cases). As a community, sports fishermen we need to strive to have better relations with the tribes. They have a lot of power in this situation. Most attacks are going to be about as effective as beating your head against a concrete wall. If you don’t believe that, just take a look at federal cases concerning native fishing rights.

    It’s easy to blame tribes. Their nets are visible, and they can sell the fish in the pike market. But why don’t people start turning some of this contempt towards people who don’t have federally recognized treaty fishing rights. We should be looking towards the people in power who are letting these fish go extinct for the sake of development, growth and natural resource extraction. It’s going to be a lot easier. The tribes are facing the same problems we are. We should realize by now that alienating them is not going to work in our favor—it hasn’t so far. Our interests are in the same place. We should be working closely with anyone who has even similar interests; we need all of the support we can get. We a both facing the same large, powerful and entrenched interests. I honestly believe that a little good will would go a long way. There has been a long standing adversarial relationship between Washingtonians and the tribes and even more so between the tribes and fishermen. If we don’t realize that this is in fact infighting we are going to continue to see this resource continue its precipitous decline.

    By the way, as I understand it, any federal infringment on a treaty fishing right is considered a 5th amendment taking--meaning that the tribed will have to be compensated for their loss--but that might be cheaper than the money being flushed into "management".
     
  8. FT

    FT Active Member

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    Derek,

    Well said.
     
  9. Roger Stephens

    Roger Stephens Active Member

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    Derek:

    iagree with you! Wise and realistic beyond your age!

    Roger
     
  10. Marty Leith

    Marty Leith Member

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    Granted, the state may claim sustainable on the OP. Ask the locals and the guides how well the fishing has been the past couple decades. How's the rest of our state doing these days with "sustainable" runs of wild steelhead. Look at the big picture here...they're numbers are declining rapidly. How many rivers and runs of wild steelhead do we have to loose before we stop killing these fish? How long do you think we really have? And what will the tribes sell when those are gone? Oh yeah....hatchery fish.

    It is not good for any of us.

    I agree this is largely a managment issue but no one group is to blame. We're all to blame so let's all try and help out.

    This is not a tribe bash - it's simply a way we can try and educate and hopefully someday realize no kill on wild steelhead.
     
  11. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

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    One recurring theme throughout this debate has been the constant reminder that the decline of WA steelhead runs cannot be blamed on tribal gillnetting.
    I agree. There are many groups that profit from indiscriminate netting of wild steelhead in our rivers. The entire supply chain from the net manufacturer to the fish monger and everyone in between are equally responsible, as are those who purchase the fish.
    Apparently there are still guides who kill wild steelhead. Fly anglers and bait and gear fishermen kill a number of wild fish also.

    We should all stop killing wild steelhead. Our success at managing this fishery hasn’t impressed the fish at all. Maybe some of you guys think its working pretty good.
    I think we should err on the side of the fish.

    JonB
     
  12. Citori

    Citori Piscatorial Engineer

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    I had occasion to have a rather pointed discussion a couple days ago with the proprietor of City Fish in Pike's Market. I hope I spoiled his day. He tried to play dumb, then assure me that WDFW said there were plenty of fish. When he figured out I wasn't going to be placated, he informed me he had the "right" to sell them. I said he had the "right" but that what he was doing was irresponsible, and patently wrong. I pointed out that those were ESA fish, and could only come from Indian fishery. I also pointed out to him that without him and people like him providing them a market, they would have no reason to catch/kill them (ok, it was a little stretch). I was able to intentionally gather a small crowd around to listen in before the chat concluded, and I did have a chance to scold them for even considering buying any "Wild Steelhead" from him. I hope I spoiled his day, that was my intention...it was surprisingly refreshing to do so.

    Don Quixote, out.
     
  13. gt

    gt Active Member

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    thanks citori, your efforts are appreciated on a personal level as i truely believe it is only through the efforts of individuals that change happens. and just think, there are now a few more individuals who paused to listen to the conversation who have more infomation as a result of your efforts. way to go.

    now jon, i don't know if you get the WDFW info email which lists fishing results and so on, but if you do, you would have noted that something on the order of 65 wild steelhead were hooked on the west end this past week and about 62 were released. (don't quote me on the exact number, only the relative spread).

    now it is true that not a single living sole can say '...this is the 'cause' of decline in wild steelhead...' simply because that is an impossible task given inaccurate science. but then to go on and excuse the indian gill netters in the same breath is idiotic. they may not be the 'cause' but they sure as hell are hastening this decline.

    getting the nets out, everywhere, is still the only hope we may have. and just as an aside for those who still think the indians are conservation minded, 1,700,000 pounds of dungness crab were apparently landed in the coastal fishery. perhaps someone will enlighten all of us as to just how close that was to their 50%. but fear not, billy frank jr, NWIFC has stated that he now wants a more 'open' forum for discussing fishery related issues. of course this was after the lone citizen who came into the NOF process last year was escorted from the room.

    sorry, jon, the indians don't get a free pass any longer.
     
  14. Jon Borcherding

    Jon Borcherding New Member

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    I'm not trying to give the tribes a "free pass" gt.
    I think it's time to stop hurling useless invective at the "Indians" and start addressing the real issue which is killing wild steelhead for profit. The fact that the vast majority of the nets belong to tribal members is obvious and it doesn't need to be repeated ad nauseum.

    By focusing on the "Indians" instead of the nets you are placing yourself in a position where you can easily be branded as a racist and your argument will not be heard, no matter how passionate or valid it is. By characterizing as "idiotic" any viewpoint that does not harp on the culpability of tribal members you are alienating people who are ready, willing and able to work for positive change in the management of these fisheries.

    It is my contention that ALL who take profit from the indiscriminate killing of wild steelhead are culpable in the destruction of this resource. That is why I applaud the actions of those who exposed recent transgressions by Haggens and City Fish. I agree with you that it would be helpful to learn where they are buying their fish so that pressure can be applied.

    Some people believe that they can make a difference by affecting change at the management level. I don't necessarily agree with them but I applaud their efforts. Others believe that they can change the current situation by supporting organizations like CCA and I support their efforts also. My personal belief is that we can make a difference, one person at a time by speaking out like Citori and Daryle and others, including you, have done.

    At the risk of being repetitive I will restate that I am not giving the tribes a pass. I am simply stating that all who profit from the indiscriminate killing of wild steelhead are guilty and I am suggesting that pressure can be more effectively applied on other links in the supply chain rather than just railing at the "Indians".

    I hope you will give this some thought, gt. It's easy to see that you are passionate about trying to do something for wild steelhead. I wish you great success in that endeavor.

    JonB
     
  15. gt

    gt Active Member

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    thanks for your clarification jon, i appreciate your taking the time to do that. i have, over and over again, presented the issue as taking ALL nets out, no arguement from me. butt, when the indian fishery is the major user, in this day and age, of gill nets in our local areas, i also believe that not pointing that out is a mistake.

    so long as the indian net fishermen get that free pass exactly because folks are 'afraid' to call them out, the longer the indiscriminate killing of wild fish continues. and jon, if the major net users were still the non tribal folks, you would be hearing about them from me as well. but the fact of the matter is the non tribal net fishery is a shadow of itself along with the troll fleet, purse seiners and all the other folks who have gone bankrupt.