Wolves on the Westside?

Discussion in 'Fly Fishing Forum' started by scottr, Aug 19, 2012.

  1. TallFlyGuy

    TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

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    It's not reintroduction.... ITs INTRODUCTION of a non native non indigenous species.

    IF WDFW cannot manage our fish species successfully, what makes anyone think they will follow and carry out a successful management "plan" for the wolves? Lets look to idaho for our example of a successful wolf "plan". NOT!
     
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  2. dflett68

    dflett68 Active Member

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    i think by now even the very uninitiated to this topic (like me) understand this technicality - that the wolves entering the state are not the original specie of wolf indigenous to washington. i notice that a couple of people have pointed out that these "immigrant" wolves are larger and capable of taking down larger and more prey. can the more informed chime in on this point? can the delta between the impact of a canadian wolf and an indigenous washington wolf really be wide enough to make a material difference in the ecosystem? are we talking about the difference between me and another guy who is two inches taller than me, or are we talking about a race of philistine giants who eat the share of 3 normal men at every meal? i'd love to hear both sides of that from those who have been able, so far, to defend their view intelligently and civilly.
     
  3. TallFlyGuy

    TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

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    Tim Kemery who was involved from the mid-1980 to the mid-1990s, in tracking and mapping native wolves in Idaho. He claims that his work was delivered to the Idaho Department of Fish and Game and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service before introduction of Canadian wolves. Here is what he said was the differences...

    PRE-INTRODUCTION RESIDENT WOLVES: WOLVES OBSERVED THREW “1995″ IN IDAHO.
    * Highly secretive behavior. Very sensitive to roads and highways. Largely nocturnal.
    * Usually found either as dispersed individuals or pairs.
    * Packing activity was very rare except during the months of January-February.
    * Pack size at breeding time was usually 4-7 individuals.
    * Females (breeding bitches) retained pups for an average of 18 months.
    * Pack dispersal was very consistent after breeding season.
    * Litter size consistently was 1-3 pups. Bitch bred at 2-year old stage.
    * Extremely selective as to food source. Rarely fed on old carcasses or kills of other species, except in the most harsh winter conditions.
    * Very much an opportunist when different prey was available. Spent great percentage of hunting effort on rodent acquisition, (moles to rabbits).
    * Sport-Reflex Killing almost negligible. Most ungulate depredation was consumptive, not surplus. Typical kill had hams and shoulders consumed.
    * Territory of individual or pairs was quite large. Average 2 week return cycle.
    * Wolf body size: Female 55 lbs.-70 lbs. Male 85 lbs.-105 lbs.
    * Competition with other predator species including coyote and fox was low. Other canine species co-existed and thrived in presence of Resident Wolves.
    * Habitat utilized consistently: Mid to high elevation, with forest and mixed forest. Resident Wolves were very resistive to utilizing large areas of open range land with grass or sagebrush cover.
    * Older mature males almost always solitary except at breeding intervals.
    * Conflict with domestic dogs very minimal except in rare cases.
    * Livestock depredations extremely rare but do occur in remote areas.
    * Consistent avoidance of man made structures, roads, vehicles, and humans.



    These are the characteristics he found in non native canadian grey wolves....

    NON NATIVE WOLF Observed Criterion: Introduced Canadian Grey Wolf, 1996 to present.
    * Exhibits low level of fear of humans. Non-secretive behavior. Minimal avoidance of humans, vehicles, domestic animals. Will cross large open terrain at will even when other options for cover are available.
    * Canadian Grey Wolf is found in small to very large pack sizes. Small packs of 5 individuals are common as are large packs with over 20 members.
    * Pack merging, the condition of 2 or more packs combining is being observed in many areas in the west and is not uncommon. Merged packs of over 40 wolves have been observed in the Central Idaho Wilderness.
    * Females (breeding bitches) can be bred even at 1-year of age, and produce from 5-9 pups per season. The pups usually remain with the pack but can disperse or be driven off by other pack members.
    * All females of breeding potential in the pack are usually bred. There is absolutely no indication that any females are kept from breeding by the theoretical “Alpha-female.” Large packs are quickly produced and can disperse and merge several times within a week.
    * Canadian Grey Wolves show a diet preference for elk but will switch at will to a secondary prey species. Low preference is shown for rodent species, but wolves do sporadically hunt rodents.
    * Sport-Reflex Killing is highly developed in Canadian Grey packs. From observations in the field, 3-5 ungulates are killed for each ungulate consumed. This surplus killing is greatly increased if the pack size is large or packs have merged. Often small wintering herds of deer or elk are completely extirpated in one hunting event.
    * Body Size: Females 60 lbs.-85 lbs. Males 90 lbs.-120 lbs.
    * Competition with other predatory species is extreme and often fatal. Both mountain lion and bear have been impacted by attacks and from reduced available prey. Other Canines such as Coyotes and Fox have been severely impacted in most of their habitats. Fox are only able to survive in habitats that include lots of willow or dense underbrush. Coyote populations have been reduced by are persisting at lower than historic levels.
    * Canadian Grey Wolves have been found to utilize all available habitats, from high elevation alpine to sagebrush deserts. This has allowed this variety of wolf to be opportunistic in all ecosystems available to it.
    * Large mature male wolves remain with the pack threw out the year, sometimes dispersing for short periods of time.
    * The Canadian Grey Wolf is highly predatory on all domestic canines. Hunting hounds are especially vulnerable to attacks and are usually killed outright in a confrontation by wolves.
    * Canadian Grey Wolves have shown a preference for predating on domestic livestock even with abundant natural prey present. Beef calves are the most common victims of wolf depredation.
    * Canadian Grey Wolves show a high level of habituation to humans, and man-made structures. It is not uncommon to find Canadian Grey Wolves in very remote areas eating out of dog dishes and coming onto porches of homes when the owners are present.
     
  4. TallFlyGuy

    TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

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    "Within the last several months, using newly available genetic information in addition to existing morphometric data, research biologists (Steven M. Chambers, Steven R. Fain, Bud Fazio, and Michael Amaral) with the US Fish and Wildlife Service completed an extensive review of wolves in North America – the third comprehensive review since 1944. These researchers support the view that only three subspecies of wolves should be recognized in western North America and that a single subspecies (Canis lupus nubilus) inhabited all of the western states north of Arizona and New Mexico, and southern Alberta, southern British Columbia and Southeast Alaska. The original common name for this relatively small wolf was “plains” wolf because it was first encountered by Europeans on the Great Plains. Although it was completely eliminated from the western United States by the late 1920s (except for a handful in the Cascades until the early 1940s), it continued to exist in healthy numbers in southwestern Canada and southeastern Alaska.
    A considerably larger northwestern wolf (Canis lupus occidentalis) occupied northern Alberta, British Columbia, Yukon, and the rest of Alaska. This wolf has always been common and its distribution has never been appreciably affected by human activity. The northwestern wolf evolved in northeast Asia and Beringia during the Wisconsin Glaciation, while smaller subspecies of wolves developed south of the ice sheets.
    ... The original wolf of the western states was 20-25% smaller, with large males seldom exceeding 110 pounds and the largest recorded being 125 pounds. The skull size of the northwestern wolf is also about 4-6% larger than that of the plains wolf. The evidence is pretty clear that the subspecies of wolf brought to the western states for reintroductionis not the same wolf that historically lived here."


    http://wallowa.com/news/canadian-wo...2-bb00-11e1-bd7e-001a4bcf887a.html?mode=print
     
  5. Kent Lufkin

    Kent Lufkin Remember when you could remember everything?

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    For anyone who's waded through the 11 pages of posts in this thread and still counting, this statement probably comes as close as any to summing it up.

    For me, two other statements also come pretty close: "Don't confuse me with facts - I know what I want to believe"; and "We have met the enemy and he is us."

    K
     
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  6. Ryan Higgins

    Ryan Higgins Active Member

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    Great information right there, with a source as well!
     
  7. dflett68

    dflett68 Active Member

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    "Exhibits low level of fear of humans. Non-secretive behavior. Minimal avoidance of humans, vehicles, domestic animals. Will cross large open terrain at will even when other options for cover are available."

    this, and many of the other behavioral differences listed, seem like they would surely be adapted when this wolf finds itself in a smaller space with 10X the number of human beings present. are you suggesting this is how they are behaving in washington, just running around in the open, exactly like they would in northern alberta where there's like 400 people living, just because that's their genetic disposition?

    and what wolf, or any predator, wouldn't prefer a defenseless beef calf to chasing down a wild deer?
     
  8. TallFlyGuy

    TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

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    I'm not saying anything, a field biologist said it. Did you read the post or just pick one item in the list to debate? DNA tests as well as many biologists and evidence support the fact that these wolves are non-native. Seeing wolves out on the flats around leadore Idaho as well as many other hunters who run into these wolves while hunting support this point. Just watch a few videos about how fearless these wolves are around elk hunters.
     
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  9. dflett68

    dflett68 Active Member

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    i read both posts, and i picked two points, not to debate, but to ask further questions about. it's understood that the wolves are a different species, and it's assumed in many posts here that this drives differences in behavior. but what analysis has gone into the differences in behavior driven by the demographics of their habitat? there are 103 people per square mile in washington, idaho has 19, british columbia has 12, alberta has 15. this wouldn't be a factor in the science?
     
  10. Richard Olmstead

    Richard Olmstead BigDog

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    Let's be sure we are clear about this. ALL wolves in North America (indeed, in the world, if you don't count the occasional use of the word 'wolf' to describe something unrelated, such as the "Tasmanian wolf") are the same species - Canis lupus. Various taxonomic treatments recognize different numbers of subspecies. One authoritative compilation is in the "Mammal Species of the World" database (go here for a list: http://www.bucknell.edu/msw3/browse.asp?s=y&id=14000696). There is still debate among mammalogists about how many subspecies to recognize in North America and some disagreement about how to circumscribe subspecies (both in general, and with respect to Canis lupus).

    Okay, back to our assertions and arguments...

    D
     
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  11. scottr

    scottr Active Member

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    I think the point people are making is about sub species (Northern Canada vs Western Plains, etc). Similar to how a Skamania stock steelhead is not the same as a Sakgit run.
     
  12. TallFlyGuy

    TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

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    Totally wrong. Now more and more biologists confirm the difference in species as well as dna samples confirm this fact. Its like saying bears are bears... black bear, grizzly, kodiak. All the same? Yeah right.
     
  13. TallFlyGuy

    TallFlyGuy Adipossessed!

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    When you can find a better source than the following named biologists, then you can come back and play in the sandbox. Until then, please be quiet.

    ....research biologists (Steven M. Chambers, Steven R. Fain, Bud Fazio, and Michael Amaral) with the US Fish and Wildlife Service completed an extensive review of wolves in North America.....A considerably larger northwestern wolf (Canis lupus occidentalis) occupied northern Alberta, British Columbia, Yukon, and the rest of Alaska. This wolf has always been common and its distribution has never been appreciably affected by human activity. The northwestern wolf evolved in northeast Asia and Beringia during the Wisconsin Glaciation, while smaller subspecies of wolves developed south of the ice sheets.
    ... The original wolf of the western states was 20-25% smaller, with large males seldom exceeding 110 pounds and the largest recorded being 125 pounds. The skull size of the northwestern wolf is also about 4-6% larger than that of the plains wolf. The evidence is pretty clear that the subspecies of wolf brought to the western states for reintroductionis not the same wolf that historically lived here."...
     
  14. dflett68

    dflett68 Active Member

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    so what's the correct taxonomy for each of the two wolves you've been referencing, if richard is wrong?
     
  15. dflett68

    dflett68 Active Member

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    i think you just confirmed what richard was saying.